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DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 19, 08 - 9:03 PM

Shelter finds

I dug in the shelter in Sanderson for a couple hours last Saturday. I didn't find any arrowheads but here's what I found.

A mano.

A burnt piece of wood.

And a piece of flint in the shape of the United States.

I found all in the shelter, but I was wondering how often you guys find burnt wood while digging outside? I know I have heard of people finding ancient charcoal, but that's about it. Is that piece of flint anything? It sure is thin from California all the way to Florida.

DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 19th, 2008 - 9:10 PM

Re: Shelter finds

Hope you're not blind now!

SH

IP: 205.188.116.11

Jul 20th, 2008 - 4:29 AM

Re: Shelter finds

Little slim pickins for $200 of gas,DJ !

Still think a metal detector search, even in all the caves would be interesting.

DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:38 AM

Re: Shelter finds

More than $200 in gas Hal! I didn't go up there just to dig in the shelter. I went up there with a cousin and a buddy of mine and we had other things to do there. They have no interest in finding artifacts.

Bobby

IP: 70.112.157.114

Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:45 AM

Re: Shelter finds

DJ if you found a Mano and burnt wood then you should end up finding the good spot eventually.With the Mano find it just shows that they were there long enough to need it to grind up some mesquite beans or something of that nature.Not just some traveling show that stopped in for a nights stay.
Don't give up just because others think there is nothing there.Think of this,those shelters would be a good place to get out of bad weather.Could be some finds in there even some burials.
You say there is a midden either out in front or on top of the shelters.Have you ever dug at the foot of the shelter?
To me it would make sense for them to have camped right in front of the shelter at the foot of them because it would be a great wind break and if it just got real bad they could get into the shelters in a hurry.
If there is a midden that means that they were there more than a night or two.That would mean that there was occupation maybe for hundreds of years depending on the size of the midden.
Just my opinion but I am sure there will be some trash talking ,for some reason here lately there have been a few people that disagree with me no matter what I have to say.Just getting out in the out doors is worth spending a little or a lot on gas but maybe next time you will find enough points to make the ride home a little better.

DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:01 AM

Re: Shelter finds

Bobby, in front of the shelters there is a little dirt but mostly rock. Right below the shelters is the river bed and up on a little higher ground is the middens. Thanks for the response Bobby, at least I have somebody who thinks I'm not wasting my time.

Bobby

IP: 70.112.157.114

Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:22 AM

Re: Shelter finds

Dj the Indians were a lot like modern people.They had a place in mind when they camped.Look at where all of the new house are being built,right on top of Indian camps.
Stand back and look at the lay out and study it.Ask yourself while you are looking at it if I was going to stay in a little round top hut or some other type shelter where would I want to put it?
Where would you get the first morning light?Since there is no forest to break the wind where would you be out of the wind?How close would you want to be from the water?Far enough in case there was a flood overnight but not too far to walk all of the time.
How far from the midden and which side?You wouldn't want to get smoked out all of the time.
There may not be just thousands of arrowheads there it all depends on the amount of material they had to work with.If they had very little material to make points there might not be that many points and the ones you find might be worked down to nothing but there should be other artifacts to go along with them like the Mano you found.You might even come across a Metate sooner or later.

DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:31 AM

Re: Shelter finds

The middens are a little closer to the river bed than you would think they should be. My theory is that Sanderson gets around 15" a rain a year and is windy almost all the time. That isn't enough rain to worry about and that would make sense for getting out of the wind.

Bobby

IP: 70.112.157.114

Jul 20th, 2008 - 9:02 AM

Re: Shelter finds

This is something that most people never think about.Say 4,000 years ago, long before there were wells,man made lakes and dams the water probably flowed in creeks that no longer flow.Creeks that do have water now had a lot more water then.Small rivers were bigger rivers and so on.
Also 4,000 years ago that might have been a lot better hunting ground than it is today because of the climate change and all.The deserts weren't always deserts.The North was covered in Ice for a very long time.Just because it is hot and dry and you may not see an abundance of critters running around now doesn't mean that 4,000 years ago it was the same situation.

DJ

IP: 76.203.199.220

Jul 20th, 2008 - 9:15 AM

Re: Shelter finds

I actually think there is a lot of food there. I see all kinds of lizards, horn toads, bugs, rabbits, deer, birds, javelina, cactus, and much more. In the desert they don't have the weeds and grass to hide in, so you see a whole lot more critters.

travis

IP: 74.192.187.55

Jul 20th, 2008 - 4:10 PM

Re: Shelter finds

DJ,
I think you will eventually hit some really good stuff out there. Keep working at it man!

DJ

IP: 99.170.76.251

Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:41 PM

Re: Shelter finds

Thanks Travis.

Mike

IP: 207.200.116.69

Jul 23rd, 2008 - 10:47 PM

Re: Shelter finds

DJ, It stands to reason that there would be another campsite within a days walk of your site. Be the site on your land or on a neighbors, part of assessing the nature of your site is to trace the movements of those who occupied it and learn their routes between camps. If you have not walked the 200 acres in detection of other sites, you could still have another one. Meet the neighbors and get permission if possible to follow the creek in both directions until you find the next site. If it winds up being a very long distance, then you may be able to better determine the short or long term occupation level of your site. Doing this may well give you a different perspective of the site and it's place of importance by those who used it. Finding another site will also give you some comparrison values. I still think that perhaps you have more out there that hasn't been found yet (food for thoughts).

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DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 19, 08 - 9:03 PM	Shelter finds I dug in the shelter in Sanderson for a couple hours last Saturday. I didn't find any arrowheads but here's what I found. A mano. A burnt piece of wood. And a piece of flint in the shape of the United States. I found all in the shelter, but I was wondering how often you guys find burnt wood while digging outside? I know I have heard of people finding ancient charcoal, but that's about it. Is that piece of flint anything? It sure is thin from California all the way to Florida.
DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 19th, 2008 - 9:10 PM	Re: Shelter finds Hope you're not blind now!
SH IP: 205.188.116.11 Jul 20th, 2008 - 4:29 AM	Re: Shelter finds Little slim pickins for $200 of gas,DJ ! Still think a metal detector search, even in all the caves would be interesting.
DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:38 AM	Re: Shelter finds More than $200 in gas Hal! I didn't go up there just to dig in the shelter. I went up there with a cousin and a buddy of mine and we had other things to do there. They have no interest in finding artifacts.
Bobby IP: 70.112.157.114 Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:45 AM	Re: Shelter finds DJ if you found a Mano and burnt wood then you should end up finding the good spot eventually.With the Mano find it just shows that they were there long enough to need it to grind up some mesquite beans or something of that nature.Not just some traveling show that stopped in for a nights stay. Don't give up just because others think there is nothing there.Think of this,those shelters would be a good place to get out of bad weather.Could be some finds in there even some burials. You say there is a midden either out in front or on top of the shelters.Have you ever dug at the foot of the shelter? To me it would make sense for them to have camped right in front of the shelter at the foot of them because it would be a great wind break and if it just got real bad they could get into the shelters in a hurry. If there is a midden that means that they were there more than a night or two.That would mean that there was occupation maybe for hundreds of years depending on the size of the midden. Just my opinion but I am sure there will be some trash talking ,for some reason here lately there have been a few people that disagree with me no matter what I have to say.Just getting out in the out doors is worth spending a little or a lot on gas but maybe next time you will find enough points to make the ride home a little better.
DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:01 AM	Re: Shelter finds Bobby, in front of the shelters there is a little dirt but mostly rock. Right below the shelters is the river bed and up on a little higher ground is the middens. Thanks for the response Bobby, at least I have somebody who thinks I'm not wasting my time.
Bobby IP: 70.112.157.114 Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:22 AM	Re: Shelter finds Dj the Indians were a lot like modern people.They had a place in mind when they camped.Look at where all of the new house are being built,right on top of Indian camps. Stand back and look at the lay out and study it.Ask yourself while you are looking at it if I was going to stay in a little round top hut or some other type shelter where would I want to put it? Where would you get the first morning light?Since there is no forest to break the wind where would you be out of the wind?How close would you want to be from the water?Far enough in case there was a flood overnight but not too far to walk all of the time. How far from the midden and which side?You wouldn't want to get smoked out all of the time. There may not be just thousands of arrowheads there it all depends on the amount of material they had to work with.If they had very little material to make points there might not be that many points and the ones you find might be worked down to nothing but there should be other artifacts to go along with them like the Mano you found.You might even come across a Metate sooner or later.
DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 20th, 2008 - 8:31 AM	Re: Shelter finds The middens are a little closer to the river bed than you would think they should be. My theory is that Sanderson gets around 15" a rain a year and is windy almost all the time. That isn't enough rain to worry about and that would make sense for getting out of the wind.
Bobby IP: 70.112.157.114 Jul 20th, 2008 - 9:02 AM	Re: Shelter finds This is something that most people never think about.Say 4,000 years ago, long before there were wells,man made lakes and dams the water probably flowed in creeks that no longer flow.Creeks that do have water now had a lot more water then.Small rivers were bigger rivers and so on. Also 4,000 years ago that might have been a lot better hunting ground than it is today because of the climate change and all.The deserts weren't always deserts.The North was covered in Ice for a very long time.Just because it is hot and dry and you may not see an abundance of critters running around now doesn't mean that 4,000 years ago it was the same situation.
DJ IP: 76.203.199.220 Jul 20th, 2008 - 9:15 AM	Re: Shelter finds I actually think there is a lot of food there. I see all kinds of lizards, horn toads, bugs, rabbits, deer, birds, javelina, cactus, and much more. In the desert they don't have the weeds and grass to hide in, so you see a whole lot more critters.
travis IP: 74.192.187.55 Jul 20th, 2008 - 4:10 PM	Re: Shelter finds DJ, I think you will eventually hit some really good stuff out there. Keep working at it man! Email: bluesurf1978@yahoo.com
DJ IP: 99.170.76.251 Jul 20th, 2008 - 7:41 PM	Re: Shelter finds Thanks Travis.
Mike IP: 207.200.116.69 Jul 23rd, 2008 - 10:47 PM	Re: Shelter finds DJ, It stands to reason that there would be another campsite within a days walk of your site. Be the site on your land or on a neighbors, part of assessing the nature of your site is to trace the movements of those who occupied it and learn their routes between camps. If you have not walked the 200 acres in detection of other sites, you could still have another one. Meet the neighbors and get permission if possible to follow the creek in both directions until you find the next site. If it winds up being a very long distance, then you may be able to better determine the short or long term occupation level of your site. Doing this may well give you a different perspective of the site and it's place of importance by those who used it. Finding another site will also give you some comparrison values. I still think that perhaps you have more out there that hasn't been found yet (food for thoughts).