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Black Jew 4 all Jews

Jan 18, 08 - 5:53 PM

Mass conversion

Black folks going back to Judaism.
http://www.stljewishlight.com/topstories/8716059022066.php

keter

Jan 19th, 2008 - 10:01 PM

Re: Mass conversion

It is unfortunate that this instance will not be seen the same or equivalent as those bene menashe, anuisim, or any other 'lost tribes' who return to judaism. It has absolutely nothing to do with race or ethnicity!!!

Those blacks in america who consider themselves descendants of ancient israel, tend to follow which ever vehicle is easiest for them to express their return. If they would have done thorough research before their conversion, they would have found that after the conversion they would still not be considered "jews" to the rest/jewish religious world. That has nothing to do with them, but through the denomination they are converting through. They converted through 'reform' judaism which is an off shoot of ashkenazi 'orthodox' judaism. And according to the ashkenazim and most of the jewish world, the only recognizable form of judaism is 'orthodox'. This is not because orthodox is trying to monopolize everything, it is because these off-shoots split from them. When reform judaism split from what became known as 'orthodox' judaism, they felt generically that there was no need to follow the torah. Nor did they feel that there would be a messiah that would one day come. Nor did they believe in keeping kosher or observing the holy days. This is the form of judaism that those of african descent from cairo illinois converted into. Therefore, it will still be hard for them to lay claim to having ancient israeli heritage... I read that orthodox rabbis looked into their claims, but chose not to convert them at the time because it would be impossible for them to live an orthodox lifestyle. It sounds stupid, but part of being jewish is living around other observant jews where you can establish a kosher market and observe the holidays and mitzvoths. Without them, it becomes extrememly difficult and easier for you do enough to get by. However, for a convert, it is important for them to start off on the right foot. They should live in an observant neighborhood which would encourage and help them to live an observant lifestyle. For example the shabbath, in an orthodox/observant community it is easier to observe the shabbath according to the laws of the shabbath. But if you live some place where you are the only one, it is easier to compromise.

Living in a community of observant jews makes it easier for you to be observant. Otherwise when you are outside the community you can be tempted to just look at the small things that seperate you from those who are not 'jews' as oppose to looking at the things that G-d wants you to do.

This is my opinion and please remember that I am not ashkenazi orthodox, I am mizrahi sephardi (which is a difference!).

Nolasina

Jan 20th, 2008 - 11:46 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Shalom,

Keter, you mentioned that you are Mizrahi Sephardi. Are you accepted by the rest of the religious Jewish world? Are you considered an orthodox Jew? Finally, did you go through a conversion? I guess you would have gone through a conversion to be considered an orthodox Jew.

Why is it so important to go through a conversion and be accepted by Askinazi Jews. There are Jews in Zimbawe, Nigera, South Africa and other countries in Africa who are not accepted by the "Jewish religious world" Shouldn't we stive for acceptance by YHWH Eloheim and not mankind who will not accept everyone.

Peace and Blessings

keter

Jan 21st, 2008 - 1:53 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Nolasima,

You have asked a very good and important question!!!

First of all the jewish world consists of the following groups: Ashkenazim (jews of euorpean ancestry) Sephardim (jews of spanish and portugese ancestry) Mizrahi/Maghrebi (Jews of oriental and north african ancestry) Beta Israel (ethiopian jews) Temani (Yemenite jews). All jews listed are accepted by the entire jewish world as being jews. All except the ashkenazim are 'only' orthodox. Meaning, they have no other denominations. They do not call themselves orthodox but their practices equate with the orthodox practices. In judaism, there was no such thing as orthodox, conservative, reform, etc.... It was just the faith of the ancestors or what was considered the traditional belief. However after the roman diaspora (70a.d.) jews were sent to various parts of the world. Jews all over the world continued to practice the same traditional beliefs, but they just had regional differences. It was only the ashkenazi jews that changed the whole belief system and that happened in the 19th century. There were practitioners that wanted to fit in with xian europe so they began to teach that traditional judaism was no longer valid. They came up with the reform movement. The reform movement rejected the teachings found within the torah and felt that judaism was an evolving religion. Because they split from traditional judaism, the branch they split from called themselves orthodox and became more strict in their observance. The 'orthodox' rabbis in europe classified the teachings, practices, and beliefs of the 'reform' rabbis as heresy and did not recognize any converts to their form of judaism.

Jews who did not live in europe did not experience this type of reformation. They continued to practice the traditions passed down by their ancestors. It just so happened that their traditions lined up with the ashkenazi orthodox traditions. The ethiopian practices also lined up with the 'orthodox' belief, it is just that they knew nothing about the oral traditions that existed while they were in the 'ethiopian diaspora'. It is important to note that the ethiopians had and still have an oral tradition that they follow in addition to their observance of the torah. The ethiopians also follow the same oral law and beliefs the modern day 'orthodox' jews follow.

I did not have to convert to judaism. Much of what I say is based off of my own personal experience and others that I know who actually did convert. It is not important to fit in with the ashkenazi orthodox, they do not own judaism. The black and white issue only exists in america. Outside of america the other jewish communities do not care about skin color, and many of them consider ashkenazi jews recent converts. It all doesn't matter because the torah says that when a person converts(joins the jewish people) he is a member of the family and should no longer be reminded of his conversion. Those jews that exist in zimbabwe, south africa, etc.. have a problem being accepted by the entire jewish community, not just the ashkenazim.

Where my family comes from, if you are observing the mitzvoths, then you are jewish. However, this is a view that I found to be followed by only a small group of jews which includes temani, ethiopian, and chinese. I have a lot to say on this topic, but I don't have the available time right now to get into the whole "who's a jew" debate. There are rabbis who have written several books on the jewish soul and why a potential convert should never be turned away. There is also a story in the talmud (I can't remember the exact tactrate I read this years ago) of a person who converted, but had no rabbi or witnesses to his conversion. The question rose up as to how can he convert himself without a rabbi or witnesses seeing his conversion. In the end it was ruled that his so-called conversion would be considered valid and he was accepted as a member of the jewish people.

You are right...G-d knows who is a jew and who isn't a jew and in the end, only what G-d thinks matters.

Hopefully this answers your question some.

keter

Jan 21st, 2008 - 2:00 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Nolasina,

My apologies for misspelling your name over and over and over again. I would say it is because I type so fast, but to tell you the truth, there really isn't any excuse. I just haven't been paying close enough attention and for that I am sorry.

Black Jew 4 all Jews

Jan 22nd, 2008 - 1:41 PM

Re: Mass conversion

I posted this article to show that there are many differnt ways to stengthen ones Yiddishkite. May be this group can get deeper in the religion, culture and lifestyle that they will find themselves living more of an "Orthodox". I wish them nothing Brucas in their journey.

Nolasina

Jan 26th, 2008 - 2:29 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Shalom,

Keter, I read the entire article and I did not read anywhere where these individuals were Hebrew Israelites. In your post you stated that Black Americans who connsider themselves Hebrew Israelites would use any vehicle to express there return. I'm not sure that applies to this group of Black Jewish converts. It was the reformed Jews that opened their arms and accepted them after being shunned by orthodox rabbis. What about all the Black Americans who have gone through conversions and who do not reside in orthodox communites are they accepted by the Jewish communites?

Yes, Hebrew Israelites (not all Hebrews are the same just as you have variations of customs, practices and interepretations with in the Jewish communities, the same can be said with Hebrew Israelites) like the Jewish people, Christians, Muslims and other religious groups, wish to return to the Holy Land.

Thank you for clarifying the various Jewish communities: Askenazim, Sephardim, Beta Israel, Tenami and Mizrahi/Maghrebi, orthodox Judanism and the reform movement. Very interesting.

Keter are you of North African descent? How did you discover your Jewish heritage(Mizrahi/Maghrebi)?

Next Year in Israel!!
Nolasina

keter

Jan 27th, 2008 - 6:26 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Nolasina,

I would like to begin with clarifying my point. I never once spoke about hebrew israelites, and if it was misunderstood or insinuated that I was speaking about them, that is completely false. As I stated when I first started posting on this site, I am a jew not a hebrew israelite. In addition, I wanted to understand the hebrew israelite stance, so that I could find a way to bridge the gap between them and modern jews. In my previous post I spoke about those blacks who feel a connection or state ties to ancient israel. When I made that statement I was not implying hebrew israelite. I was thinking about ancient israel in the broad sense of the word, as I, mizrahim, tenamim, ashkeanzim, etc... lay claim that we are descendants of the ancient israelite tribes. It does not matter if we came from conversions or if we are literal descendants, we are still a part of the tribes. That is the understanding I was presenting when I spoke about those of african descendant fromc cario illinois stating that they are descendants of ancient israel.

In addition I did not have to discover my heritage as I was born jewish. I came to this site by accident. I have the complexion that would classify me as being african american, but I have additional ancestry that has always been a part of my life. I didn't always live an observant lifestyle, but I do now. I came on this site because many from my job felt that I was the only "black jew" but one of my collegues found this site and referred it to me. I am not a hebrew israelite nor am I interested in becoming one. I have spoken to a few over the years, but we have agreed that I have a different platform. I have come to this site so that I could learn more about hebrew israelites and black jews in america, and find a way to incoroporate them into mainstreem judaism.

nolasina

Jan 27th, 2008 - 1:17 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Shalom Keter,

Thank you for the clarification.

Nolasina

noseh

Feb 17th, 2008 - 1:17 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Keter you may be a black person but you write with a white computer. This family is about a Abrahm's love from the Creator. You did the right thing in coming to this site because it seems that you have a lot of knowledge and wisdom about this way of life, but you lack soul. I get the feeling of separation from you in reading your complaints. Learn to really open up your heart and let people in who are positive in your life. Right now it seems like you are hanging around the wrong type people. If you are truely black like you say be happy to be called a Hebrew Israelite, Abraham did stay in Hebron for a short while. It only represent a connection with the land that was promised to him by the creator. If you are not black take your mask off while on this site and use your real color. We don't bite it's just a lie told by others. Just because some brothers and sister are trying to convert-it was put into their to do so. You should not kick people down for trying to get close to the one who made their way, their world, lives. They maybe strangers and not Israelites we don't know only the Creator do. If you really need to judge something or a situation judge those who are against rightousness, fore the people in southern Illinois are for rightousness. Use your snappy words to attack me I can beat them all down until you get the pain out.

JEWbilant!

Feb 20th, 2008 - 12:36 AM

Re: Mass conversion

!SHALOM, BELOVED! Please, please, please. Don't you know the enemy of our souls has (so far)warred to divide and conquer...and has been pretty much successful until now? Whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, our Ashkenazic bretheren took up the slack, became faithful, fearless witnesses and custodians of Torah, they upheld Torah, they protected Torah, despite EVERYTHING man has thrown at him to get him to deny HaShem, HIS Torah and HIS ways. WE ARE IN THE END OF DAYS, BEFORE MOSHIACH COMES. STOP THE FOOLISHMENT. Some of us choose to "convert" at rabbinic Judaism-respect their request to obey scripture, paraphrased as:"One Jew Recognizes Another Jew" = "We all recognize one another". Other Jews KNOW they are Jews and do not undergo the conversion process: "I'm a Jew, already. I don't need a man to tell me so!". We know, THEY ARE STILL JEWS... whether man says so or not. The world fights and dogs one another. For us, it is not so. Remember? You can fight, argue, press your point. That's how we ended up in the place we are in!The world hated so bitterly the European Jews, those Jews were forced to UNITE. What's it going to take for us to unite, with our selves and our brothers, whatever their black/red/white/brown/yellow "earth suit"? Yes, I know, many of the rabbinic Jews's position towards us. Get used to it: they have a right...based at least, in part, by our actions-history. Do you REALLY want to contribute to the mess we have now? (I have expressed myself from my heart before and have been blasted almost to smithereens. HaShem IS merciful. I AM HERE, in spite of that. I WILL PROCLAIM OUR G-D IS ONE:Shema, Israel. Adonai Eloheinu. Adonai echad. Baruch shem kevod malchuto, l'olam va'ed. I WILL BE A JEW AND DIE AS A JEW. AND I AWAIT HIS MESSIAH.

Gabriel

Feb 21st, 2008 - 8:38 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Noseh said
"Keter you may be a black person but you write with a white computer"

"get the feeling of separation from you in reading your complaints"

"Learn to really open up your heart and let people in who are positive in your life"

"You should not kick people down for trying to get close to the one who made their way, their world, lives."

I say the following in peace Noseh. I feel that the above mentioned statements are unfair towards Keter. Take a close look at some of the things keter said:

Keter:
"I came on this site because many from my job felt that I was the only "black jew" but one of my collegues found this site and referred it to me. I am not a hebrew israelite nor am I interested in becoming one. I have spoken to a few over the years, but we have agreed that I have a different platform. I have come to this site so that I could learn more about hebrew israelites and black jews in america, and find a way to incoroporate them into mainstreem judaism."

All he is saying is that he though he looks black he is not of an origin which would be traditionally seen as African American. He is also saying that he is not a hebrew Israelite. Many people, including hebrew Israelites themselves, see their religion as seperate from Judaism, something he obviously practices. =>

"All jews listed are accepted by the entire jewish world as being jews. All except the ashkenazim are 'only' orthodox. Meaning, they have no other denominations. They do not call themselves orthodox but their practices equate with the orthodox practices. In judaism, there was no such thing as orthodox, conservative, reform, etc.... It was just the faith of the ancestors or what was considered the traditional belief. However after the roman diaspora (70a.d.) jews were sent to various parts of the world. Jews all over the world continued to practice the same traditional beliefs, but they just had regional differences."

I don't think he was trying to seperate himself. He gave Nolasima detailed information and even joined the website the website because he "wanted to understand the hebrew israelite stance, so [he]... could find a way to bridge the gap between them and modern jews." 'Bridging the gap' is obviously, very different from trying to "give people the feeling of seperation" or not "letting people who are positive" into his life.

I also do not feel that he was trying to kick anyone down for their beleifs because one of the last things he said is "You are right...G-d knows who is a jew and who isn't a jew and in the end, only what G-d thinks matters."

I think he was just trying to give Nosalina information.

PS kal b'shalom aHi All in peace my brother

barukh shem malkhutho l'olam wa'ed

Gabriel

ruth

Feb 22nd, 2008 - 8:12 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Thank you, brother.
I'm happy, that I'm not the only one who thinks Keter is a righteous person.
Shabbat shalom le-kulkhem!

Haddassah

Feb 23rd, 2008 - 9:49 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Shabot Shalom to everyone I am a Hebrew and fel that it is impotant that Yah is the center of your life..... People my worship in all ways but if he is whom all praise is given to then in the end that is all that should eally matter... one's journey to the creator may be from many differnt routes but as long as it is He that is the end result then the results will be the same... The Worship on the creator...

noseh

Feb 24th, 2008 - 12:25 AM

Re: Mass conversion

When he brings us all together as one, he will not call us blacks. He will call us Israel. The most great is the one who really comes in peace. You Gabriel came to defend;there is nothing wrong with that. We are the children of the most great and I am sure he is glad someone is trying to make things go the right way here on his world. Peace to Israelites where ever we may be in life. Let's remember the 613 laws that was given to us and to the stranger.

Maurice

Feb 24th, 2008 - 9:56 AM

Re: Mass conversion

to my understanding the stranger need only follow the Noahide Laws. We as Jews are held to a higher standard. Feel free to check me on this ...

I

Feb 24th, 2008 - 3:32 PM

Re: Mass conversion

life is not black, white, green or red Noseh life is between you, me and everyone else even Keter.

keter

Feb 27th, 2008 - 12:07 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Thank you for the kind words Ruth and Gabriel!

Noseh,

My only suggestions are that you first go back and look at all of my posts. If you are unable to view all of them, I would suggest looking at my earliest posts. I explained how I came across this site and what my intentions were. I have also reiterated them on this topic, which Gabriel has quoted in his reply.

I personally believe all people were created in the image of G-d. I also feel that anyone seeking to understand the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, should be assisted in their search (regardless if they are jew, hebrew israelite, muslim, buddhist, baha'i,black, white, brown, yellow, red, native born, convert,lost, etc..)

I believe in the original message that G-d gave to the jewish/hebrew people. And that message stated that we are to be a light onto the world. By observing His commandments, we will draw all other nations unto Him. That is why I am not into the language that divides people according to country of origin or color of skin or original vs convert. I am only against those who state G-d's commands are no longer valid today and we can live however we wish as long as we 'love G-d'. I believe in the commandments that G-d gave to our ancestors, and I believe any one can serve G-d by observing these commandments. I do not believe they are exclusive commandments for only a certain group of people (even though this thinking is contrary to the mainstream religious group I belong to).

I am sorry that you might feel that I am of a contrary spirit, but my hope is that my actions (even though you cannot see them) speak louder than my words.

B'havat klal yisrael

Noseh

Feb 27th, 2008 - 12:10 AM

Re: Mass conversion

I don't remember the most great naming laws after anybody (Noahide Laws). Only man does such a thing. The most great gave the laws to Israel and to the stranger who live among them in the land that was given, so I was right earlier. I only hope that the people who are controlling the land of Israel are following that particular law. Since you are picking me, by secretly trying to find out if I'm a Jewish person, the answer is no. I'm not in that barrel.I never was, but I respect people who took the time to read a great history like mine and wanted the same one who is truly for us all. Sometimes Mountains collide with each other and oceans overflow, but when it's all said and done the most great will make sure things turn out the way it should Maurice.

Noseh

Feb 27th, 2008 - 10:22 PM

Re: Mass conversion

I will never be able to see your actions Keter; I can only read them. As long as you love the one who created this world in six days, we are on the same side. May ice cool down the heat in your head, so you can quickly calm down. Peace to you.

Cholent

May 25th, 2008 - 2:15 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Just a question and Im not trying to put anyone down, I just don't follow.
If they are returning to their roots of Judaism why did they choose to return to something that rejects the basis of Judaism?

I

May 27th, 2008 - 7:13 PM

Re: Mass conversion

What is Judaism? I did not know that Judah had his own region. Is this a tricky question. I thought the whole family were Israelites with a way of life.

Noseh

May 27th, 2008 - 7:46 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Cholent they may have went to that religon because they never really understood what being a Hebrew is all about. I only hope they find the Most Great and ask him for help and a better understanding. We may all climb the great rock, but even ropes snap and gave way. I hope there is another rope for them.

Cholent

May 28th, 2008 - 5:45 AM

Re: Mass conversion

Noseh, there is always a second chance
The key to everything lies in education, but as Jews we don't seek to educate non-jews in our ways, even if these non-Jews came from Jews. But if they seek to return, even just one of them we help them and educate them. Its a tricky topic

I, Judaism would be the religion of the Jews.
I guess you could say that Yehuda had his own religion as the twelve tribes split with a 10:2, the 10 being lost and the 2 remaining strong and dedicated to Torah etc, the 10 tribes are slowly returning to Torah based on the wonderful work of organizations like Shavei etc..

Black Jew for all Jews

Jun 18th, 2008 - 9:28 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Check this out if you are in the ATL.

http://www.ajc.com/feeds/content/living/stories/2008/06/18/black_jewish_faith.html

Shalom

Noseh

Jul 13th, 2008 - 7:17 PM

Re: Mass conversion

Cholent we all fail to remember that Levi was in Benjamin and Judah, and they were the ones who really kept the Torah in the family and not Judah. Judah kept his land the longest he and Benjamin, but Levi kept the laws. There is no reason to call everyone who worship the Most Great a Jew. He said "Don't add anything to it or take anythhing away from it" (what was written). If you are not an Israelite you are a stranger that is in the mist of the Israel and the Torah, and to me everyone who converts to Judaism (a religion not a way of life for the Jews, but they will never admit it)is a stranger, and it is nothing wrong with that, for the Most Great love the stranger as well. The Jews are loved by the Most Great because they keep His laws just like the Holy Family (Hebrew Israelites with a way of life not a religion). For those who don't know Judah was a son of Israel. Meaning he came after. I don't care what the so-called slave catchers chose to call our people, they (the catchers) were lazy people anyway. I guess if all the Sutherlands had to get counted, they would be call Sue until this day and how can a man be proud to be stuck with that name? We are not counting slaves right now. Give my ancestor there respect for who they were and who we are right now (Hebrew Israelites). Excuse me while I clean of the soap Box.
p.S. Although the other ten tribes went away, I'm quite sure some of them were on the slave ships and were shipped away with Judah, Benjamin and Levi; it is a posibility. Israel was shipped to many places in this world because it was told to Abraham by the Most Great. Jew? No, Israel. One family? No, the whole family.
soap box cleaned.

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