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It was a question about your 'theory' and you didn't answer it.

There was no admission made. Ham and Co. claim that evolution somehow occurred at a breakneck pace in the past. They also claim that it does not occur now. There is no scientific evidence for or explanation of these ridiculously wild claims. He wanted to know if you could provide one. It is clear that you can't.

No, you must prove that evolution presently occurs.

To prove quotes are false, provide us with scientific FACTS or any direct observation that evolution occurred or is presently occurring.

That would be the best way to debate, verses complaining about every quote.

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There was no admission made. Ham and Co. claim that evolution somehow occurred at a breakneck pace in the past. They also claim that it does not occur now. There is no scientific evidence for or explanation of these ridiculously wild claims. He wanted to know if you could provide one. It is clear that you can't.

Evolution has been established and observed. Ham's half-baked assertions have not.

The facts are that the Earth about 750,000 times older than Ham supposes. The life on it is about 615,000 times older than Ham asserts. He has absolutely no evidence to support his claims of a young Earth.

Speciation has been observed both in the lab and the field.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Beyond that evolution can be inferred from the fossil record, homology, genetics, shared proteins, etc.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

You have been provided with evidence for evolution in all these ways and more. You have been unable to support creationism or effectively refute the evidence for evolution.

Both you and Ham have the same problem. You need to provide a better explanation for the evidence based on science. Evolution is established theory, meaning it explains this evidence. Creationism isn't even a well-formulated, testable hyphothesis.

Re: No, you must prove that evolution presently occurs.

We vhave. Mutations still occur. Beneficial, deleterious and neutral ones. Natural selection will always exist as long as life exists. Evolution doe hapen. We´ve been over this many times before.

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To prove quotes are false, provide us with scientific FACTS or any direct observation that evolution occurred or is presently occurring.

That would be the best way to debate, verses complaining about every quote.

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There was no admission made. Ham and Co. claim that evolution somehow occurred at a breakneck pace in the past. They also claim that it does not occur now. There is no scientific evidence for or explanation of these ridiculously wild claims. He wanted to know if you could provide one. It is clear that you can't.

Re: Its' your theory so you answer why evolution isn't occurring today

I admitted no such thing. I saidf that it isn´t occuring at the fantastic rates that creationist organizations claim it once did, and they cannot offer any reason as to why.

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Considering your astonishing admission to evolution NOT occurring today, why doesn't it?

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I have a question for you. AiG says that during their flood model mutation rates were hundreds of thousands of times faster than today's in order to accommodate for two animals of each kind producing every species today. Why is it that selective pressure and mutation rates aren't that high today? What caused such spectacular evolution 4400 years ago? Why don't we see it today? Why is it that all data today suggests that if the mutation rates were ever that high every animal on the planet would be dead? How do you explain this?

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Evolutionists claim all sorts of fossils are our ancestors but, when they can prove it, let us know.

It's interesting that even evolutionist, Henry Gee (see quote on www.whoisyourcreation.com) acknowledges that human ancestory is impossible to summarize through the fossil record.

What other fossils will eventually come out of the closet? Again, since evolution is still occurrring around us, why don't you point to a similar living example of ANY transition. Wouln't that be easier for you?

Gee quote does not deny evolution or common descent.

It is interesting to see that you are still trying to misuse the Gee quote to support your position.

We talked about the Gee quote earlier. He was offended by the Discovery Institute dishonestly cherry picking his work to try to deny evolution. Gee accepts evolution and common descent. His statement says nothing opposing a common ancestor between humans and Australopithecus aferensis.

As I indicated in the last post and earlier ones on this subject, the consensus has been for some time that A. aferensis is not a direct ancestor. That does not refute that Lucy is a transitional species. It simply means that aferensis was not directly in the line of human ancestory.

Other fossils are indeed closer and are considered more likely to be ancestoral.

Re: Gee quote does not deny evolution or common descent.

I bet 5 bucks that she's looking for some more quotes to try to discredit A. afarensis.

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It is interesting to see that you are still trying to misuse the Gee quote to support your position.

We talked about the Gee quote earlier. He was offended by the Discovery Institute dishonestly cherry picking his work to try to deny evolution. Gee accepts evolution and common descent. His statement says nothing opposing a common ancestor between humans and Australopithecus aferensis.

As I indicated in the last post and earlier ones on this subject, the consensus has been for some time that A. aferensis is not a direct ancestor. That does not refute that Lucy is a transitional species. It simply means that aferensis was not directly in the line of human ancestory.

Other fossils are indeed closer and are considered more likely to be ancestoral.

Re: Re: Gee quote does not deny evolution or common descent.

She hasn't found one yet, but that doesn't mean she won't try to stretch something to fit.

Your posting

Enough of your insults, Arneson.

If you want to personally insult me, stand in line.

If you want to debate in a mature manner with information, it will give more credibility.

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She hasn't found one yet, but that doesn't mean she won't try to stretch something to fit.

Re: Your posting

You quoted Gee in a manner that didn't support your position. It was a stretch, indeed. It was not an insult, but an observation.

Quotes discrediting 'Lucy' by evolutionists

Lucy was discredited years ago, but now it's finally official:

“Mandibular ramus morphology on a recently discovered specimen of Australopithecus afarensis closely matches that of gorillas. This finding was unexpected given that chimpanzees are the closest living relatives of humans … The presence of the morphology in both the latter and Au. afarensis and its absence in modern humans cast doubt on the role of Au. afarensis as a modern human ancestor.”
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0606454104v1

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I bet 5 bucks that she's looking for some more quotes to try to discredit A. afarensis.

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It is interesting to see that you are still trying to misuse the Gee quote to support your position.

We talked about the Gee quote earlier. He was offended by the Discovery Institute dishonestly cherry picking his work to try to deny evolution. Gee accepts evolution and common descent. His statement says nothing opposing a common ancestor between humans and Australopithecus aferensis.

As I indicated in the last post and earlier ones on this subject, the consensus has been for some time that A. aferensis is not a direct ancestor. That does not refute that Lucy is a transitional species. It simply means that aferensis was not directly in the line of human ancestory.

Other fossils are indeed closer and are considered more likely to be ancestoral.

Your quotes only discreds yourself

We've talked about this quote and the one from Gee before. The Isreali scientists determined that A. afarensis was not directly ancestoral to humans. This is a conclusion that most scientists had come to already. The article does indicate clearly that Lucy was transitional as my post in April indicated.

http://pub17.bravenet.com/forum/1424646898/fetch/706426/

The quote had nothing to do with the original you are posting about

The quote is from a letter from Gee to NCSE about the use of the original quote.

Would you like to correct Gee on this one too?

"To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story - amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific."
Henry Gee, In Search of Time: Beyond the Fossil Record ato a New History of Life, New York, The Free Press, 1999 page 126-127.

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It is interesting to see that you are still trying to misuse the Gee quote to support your position.

We talked about the Gee quote earlier. He was offended by the Discovery Institute dishonestly cherry picking his work to try to deny evolution. Gee accepts evolution and common descent. His statement says nothing opposing a common ancestor between humans and Australopithecus aferensis.

As I indicated in the last post and earlier ones on this subject, the consensus has been for some time that A. aferensis is not a direct ancestor. That does not refute that Lucy is a transitional species. It simply means that aferensis was not directly in the line of human ancestory.

Other fossils are indeed closer and are considered more likely to be ancestoral.

Gee doesn't need correcting...

However, your inappropiate aplication of his quote does.

Please share with us what Gee actually 'meant'

The original quote was from:
http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/articles/3167_pr90_10152001__gee_responds_10_15_2001.asp

Since you claim my application of Gee's quote was 'inappropriate,' please be specific and state exactly what Gee 'meant' to say so we can apply it correctly.

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However, your inappropiate aplication of his quote does.

Read the whole article and think about how you have represented Gee.

Let's break it down for you.

He is a scientist who accepts the validity of the theory of evolution and common descent.

His quotation had nothing to do with any dispute about the validity of Lucy as a transitional. Beyond that, his point in "In Search of Deep Time" was only that researchers should not claim direct lineage that they can't establish with evidence. No one here in this thread claimed that Lucy was ancetoral to humans. She was, however, transitional and neither Gee nor competent scientists deny that fact.

He was specifically talking about how creationists misrepresent his views to support a position that neither he nor the evidence supports.

Finally, I think he sums up your problem pretty nicely in point 4 of his response to Jonathan Wells dishonest quote mining.

"In addition, the use by creationists of selective, unauthorized quotations, possibly with intent to mislead the public undermines their position as self-appointed guardians of public values and morals."

Back to religion again

Gee believes that all fossils are 'transitional' because:
"if we didn't have ancestors, then we wouldn't be here."

It's his faith in evolution he is referring to, not scientific proof for it.


Gee's quote:
"That it is impossible to trace direct lineages of ancestry and descent from the fossil record should be self-evident. Ancestors must exist, of course -- but we can never attribute ancestry to any particular fossil we might find. Just try this thought experiment -- let's say you find a fossil of a hominid, an ancient member of the human family. You can recognize various attributes that suggest kinship to humanity, but you would never know whether this particular fossil represented your lineal ancestor - even if that were actually the case. The reason is that fossils are never buried with their birth certificates. Again, this is a logical constraint that must apply even if evolution were true -- which is not in doubt, because if we didn't have ancestors, then we wouldn't be here. Neither does this mean that fossils exhibiting transitional structures do not exist, nor that it is impossible to reconstruct what happened in evolution. Unfortunately, many paleontologists believe that ancestor/descendent lineages can be traced from the fossil record, and my book is intended to debunk this view. However, this disagreement is hardly evidence of some great scientific coverup -- religious fundamentalists such as the DI -- who live by dictatorial fiat -- fail to understand that scientific disagreement is a mark of health rather than decay. However, the point of IN SEARCH OF DEEP TIME, ironically, is that old-style, traditional evolutionary biology -- the type that feels it must tell a story, and is therefore more appealing to news reporters and makers of documentaries -- is unscientific."

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Let's break it down for you.

He is a scientist who accepts the validity of the theory of evolution and common descent.

His quotation had nothing to do with any dispute about the validity of Lucy as a transitional. Beyond that, his point in "In Search of Deep Time" was only that researchers should not claim direct lineage that they can't establish with evidence. No one here in this thread claimed that Lucy was ancetoral to humans. She was, however, transitional and neither Gee nor competent scientists deny that fact.

He was specifically talking about how creationists misrepresent his views to support a position that neither he nor the evidence supports.

Finally, I think he sums up your problem pretty nicely in point 4 of his response to Jonathan Wells dishonest quote mining.

"In addition, the use by creationists of selective, unauthorized quotations, possibly with intent to mislead the public undermines their position as self-appointed guardians of public values and morals."

Actually, no. You should read the quote you posted.

Gee put it pretty well in your quote:
"Neither does this mean that fossils exhibiting transitional structures do not exist, nor that it is impossible to reconstruct what happened in evolution."

Although Gee is a believer, it has nothing to do with religious faith. This is a matter of science and scientific evidence.

We know that Lucy was transitional because of the mosaic of characteristics exhibited in the fossil. The Isreali scientists you quoted found that Lucy's species was transitional toward the Australopithecus robustus.

Your quotes don't address the issue.

A. afarensis is transitional. No one here has claimed that this species is in the direct line to man, nor did the Gee quote address A. afarensis at all. You are stretching a quote to try to refute a position that none of us have taken.