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Re: Jumping Genes Cause Diseases, Like a Very BAD Visiting Relative

John, the only people who suggest that monkeys turn into men are you and Julie.

You still didn't answer my question, though. You've told me that transposons wreak havoc MOST of the time, but I'm not interested in what happens MOST of the time, I want to know what happens the rest of the time. So...what happens the rest of the time?

Try Reading More Carefully

Brian:

You are being tedious. Did you happen to notice that I used the phrase "as it were?" The equivalent would be the alliterative "so to speak."

Everyone knows that what we are referring to are the supposed ancestors to apes and humans, and that apes don't have tails while monkeys do.

Please be observant enough to discern between the figurative and the literal.

As to your question about if it is possible for transposons, (and I will add in ten thousand lifetimes), to insert themselves into a DNA sequence and come out with an actual intelligent, working addition to that sequence, I find that proposition to be ridiculous. First, most of the time the gene is usually disabled by the assault, and repair is usually not possible. But even if it were somehow successful, it would take thousands if not tens of thousands of perfect new genes all working in harmony to make a more advanced brain, and that is simply impossible without some kind of intelligent intervention, which Darwinism flatly denies.

"The caveat [in human brain evolution] is that there are many such genes. It takes thousands, if not tens of thousands, for the brain to develop properly."

-Bruce Lahn, University of Chicago.

Just because something COULD happen in ten thousand lifetimes, does not mean that it DID. And that would be for just ONE sequence.

You should be ashamed as an intelligent adult to waste good time on such nonsense. It is gibberish.

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Replying to:

John, the only people who suggest that monkeys turn into men are you and Julie.

You still didn't answer my question, though. You've told me that transposons wreak havoc MOST of the time, but I'm not interested in what happens MOST of the time, I want to know what happens the rest of the time. So...what happens the rest of the time?

Try Reading More Carefully

Brian:

Monkeys to men is a metaphor. Did you notice I used the phrase "as it were?" Another equivalent in English is "so to speak." Everyone knows what is being spoken of are supposed common ancestors to apes and humans, and everyone knows that monkeys have tails and apes don't.

You are being tedious.

Please be observant enough to discern the figurative from the literal.

As to your question about jumping genes possibly being beneficial, I find what you are suggesting to be preposterous. First, most genomes are disabled and cannot be repaired after being assaulted by your jumping genes, but even so, blindly inserting gene sequences in between DNA code and saying that such a willy-nilly process will result in an intelligent, productive addition to that code, is like trying to repair a damaged and unknown computer code by randomly typing in letters and numbers. It would take a million years at least, just to get one complicated sequence exactly right. If there are tens of thousand of perfect genes working together that are required for a human brain to develop properly, that would require that many new sequences to be developed randomly.

I repeat what Bruce Lahn from the University of Chicago said about the genetic basis of brain evolution:

"The caveat is that there are many such genes. It takes thousands, if not tens of thousands, for the brain to develop."

I have never heard such absurd nonsense in all my life. Just because something COULD happen in a hundred thousand lifetimes, is no proof that it did happen.

You should be ashamed as an intelligent adult to engage in such silliness. What a waste of time.

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Replying to:

John, the only people who suggest that monkeys turn into men are you and Julie.

You still didn't answer my question, though. You've told me that transposons wreak havoc MOST of the time, but I'm not interested in what happens MOST of the time, I want to know what happens the rest of the time. So...what happens the rest of the time?

Re: Try Reading More Carefully

"Everyone knows", ey? Why don't you ask your congregation on their way out this weekend if evolution means that monkeys turn into men. Let us know what the responses are.

Nevertheless, finally we are getting to the heart of the matter. We've established now that there are a variety of mechanisms for mutation, one of which is transposition. We both agree on this. And I've asked you now what happens when transposition (or any type of mutation, for that matter) is not detrimental, and you claim in this last post, that mutation is NEVER beneficial. Am I interpreting your post correctly?

Again, is transposition (i.e. the action of a jumping gene) EVER beneficial? It's a yes or no question.

Finally, your analogy to computer code is wrong, but let's hold off on that discussion for just a little while.

Oh and thanks for the compliment. "Intelligent", oh stop, I'm blushing.

"Monkeys make men." -- Do You Know Who Said That?

Brian:

You act as if you have some super-secret, obscure, esoteric knowledge that no one else has. Yes, only you few in the inner, inner circle understand such deep mysteries. Please. This is more sad, delusional nonsense, typical of self-flattering unfortunates caught up in a cult. And indeed, Darwinism IS a self-worshipping cult.

But as to your dismissiveness of the monkey reference, the quote "Monkeys make men" is especially relevant. Can you guess who said it?


Men & Apes
An orangutan called Jenny was the first ape Darwin ever saw—and one of the first ever to appear in the London Zoo. Zookeepers often enhanced the humanlike qualities of these popular exhibits by dressing the animals in children's clothes and teaching them human habits. But Darwin would have seen a resemblance between Jenny and his own offspring without the costuming. When Jenny was angry at her keeper, he wrote, the animal "threw itself down on its back & kicked & cryed like a naughty child.—Do monkeys cry?-they whine like children."

Almost as soon as he started thinking about evolution, Darwin understood this: what applied to plants and animals also applied to people. We had evolved, too. "It is absurd to talk of one animal being higher than another," he wrote in one notebook; in another, "Monkeys make men." At a time when most of his fellow citizens took for granted that we had been created in the image of the divine, such thinking was outrageous—the most radical of Darwin's many radical ideas.

Brothers Under the Skin

[Huxley drawing of ape skeletons compared to man did not reproduce HERE. They commonly referred to apes and monkeys as "Brothers Under the Skin."]

Huxley progression from Man's Place in Nature
© AMNH Library

Biologist and teacher Thomas Huxley was known as "Darwin's bulldog." The illustration above is from his book on human evolution, published eight years before Darwin's Descent of Man. A gifted and provocative speaker, Huxley often lectured on evolution with his arm draped affectionately over a gorilla skeleton.

-from www.aucklandmuseum.com


Darwin himself said that men come from monkeys, and he said it long, long before I pointed it out.

Brian, for a man who imagines himself to be so intellectually superior, you sure don't know very much about your own subject, now do you?

I repeat, no one is mystified about the subject under discussion, no one that is except you, apparently.

And I would ask you, IS transposition EVER beneficial, and if so, where? And even if you can demonstrate such a rare occurrence, how is that relevant? The odds of bits of stray DNA code adding creative information to a gene sequence that determines brain size and complexity have to be beyond astronomical. This is especially so, in view of the fact that such an amazing thing would have to happen thousands if not tens of thousands of times.

This is why REAL scientists who actually practice science by following the evidence, rather than fake scientists who "think" by consensus, are becoming very sceptical about Darwinism.

For you to pursue such a tenuous connection with gene jumping to "prove" evolution is to skip the sublime and dive headlong into the absurd.

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Replying to:

"Everyone knows", ey? Why don't you ask your congregation on their way out this weekend if evolution means that monkeys turn into men. Let us know what the responses are.

Nevertheless, finally we are getting to the heart of the matter. We've established now that there are a variety of mechanisms for mutation, one of which is transposition. We both agree on this. And I've asked you now what happens when transposition (or any type of mutation, for that matter) is not detrimental, and you claim in this last post, that mutation is NEVER beneficial. Am I interpreting your post correctly?

Again, is transposition (i.e. the action of a jumping gene) EVER beneficial? It's a yes or no question.

Finally, your analogy to computer code is wrong, but let's hold off on that discussion for just a little while.

Oh and thanks for the compliment. "Intelligent", oh stop, I'm blushing.

Re: "Monkeys make men." -- Do You Know Who Said That?

John,
There are plenty of people who possess the knowledge that I possess. There are plenty who know more about this subject than I do. You happen to not fit into either one of those groups.

If Huxley wrote that monkeys (modern monkeys, as we know them) turn into men, he was wrong. And if Darwin said that monkeys turn into men, he was wrong. But my guess is they didn't say quite that (in context). My guess is they both wrote that monkeys and men are descendants of a common ancestor, an ape-like creature. This is a subtle, but extremely important distinction. However your assertion that monkeys turn into men, and Julie's challenges to "evolve" a mouse into a bat, and the entire message that is presented graphically on the billboard show that you do not understand this fundamental point.

Re: transposons
You maintained for a long time that all DNA mutations create nonfunctional, "corrupted" DNA. You have since recanted on this, admitting that mutations in fact USUALLY are detrimental, but not always.

More recently you suggested that no mechanism exists for adding DNA code to an existing genome. ("I repeat, alteration of the DNA code, whether by radiation, chemical, diet or other environmenmtal factors, CANNOT CREATIVELY ADD CODE" - your caps.) Now you appear to be recanting on that too, since you acknowledge the existence of transposons, which are in fact pieces of DNA code that add to an existing genome.

So John, to answer your question, "IS transposition EVER beneficial?" The answer is yes.
"we have identified an adaptive transposable element insertion, which truncates a gene and apparently generates a functional protein in the process. The insertion of this transposable element confers increased resistance to an organophosphate pesticide and has spread in D. melanogaster recently."
Aminetzach et. al., Science, 2005 (309) 764.
Look it up yourself.

Your Invisible Friend

Brian:

You are debating someone, but it is not me. Your answers and comments are non-responsive to mine. You make statements about things that you say I said, but in fact I never said. You are even putting words in Julie's mouth that she never wrote.

You seem to have an invisible friend you are debating, and you remind me of the character in the movie "Harvey." He had an invisible friend too, and when he was asked by a shrink to explain himself, he said:

"Well, Doc, I've been wrestling with reality for many years, and I'm glad to say, I won!"

Brian, you may have won in your struggle against reality, but please don't expect the rest of us to go along with your departure from the real world.

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Replying to:

John,
There are plenty of people who possess the knowledge that I possess. There are plenty who know more about this subject than I do. You happen to not fit into either one of those groups.

If Huxley wrote that monkeys (modern monkeys, as we know them) turn into men, he was wrong. And if Darwin said that monkeys turn into men, he was wrong. But my guess is they didn't say quite that (in context). My guess is they both wrote that monkeys and men are descendants of a common ancestor, an ape-like creature. This is a subtle, but extremely important distinction. However your assertion that monkeys turn into men, and Julie's challenges to "evolve" a mouse into a bat, and the entire message that is presented graphically on the billboard show that you do not understand this fundamental point.

Re: transposons
You maintained for a long time that all DNA mutations create nonfunctional, "corrupted" DNA. You have since recanted on this, admitting that mutations in fact USUALLY are detrimental, but not always.

More recently you suggested that no mechanism exists for adding DNA code to an existing genome. ("I repeat, alteration of the DNA code, whether by radiation, chemical, diet or other environmenmtal factors, CANNOT CREATIVELY ADD CODE" - your caps.) Now you appear to be recanting on that too, since you acknowledge the existence of transposons, which are in fact pieces of DNA code that add to an existing genome.

So John, to answer your question, "IS transposition EVER beneficial?" The answer is yes.
"we have identified an adaptive transposable element insertion, which truncates a gene and apparently generates a functional protein in the process. The insertion of this transposable element confers increased resistance to an organophosphate pesticide and has spread in D. melanogaster recently."
Aminetzach et. al., Science, 2005 (309) 764.
Look it up yourself.

Warning to John & Brian

Please clean up your acts and keep focused on debating the issue.

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Replying to:

Brian:

You are debating someone, but it is not me. Your answers and comments are non-responsive to mine. You make statements about things that you say I said, but in fact I never said. You are even putting words in Julie's mouth that she never wrote.

You seem to have an invisible friend you are debating, and you remind me of the character in the movie "Harvey." He had an invisible friend too, and when he was asked by a shrink to explain himself, he said:

"Well, Doc, I've been wrestling with reality for many years, and I'm glad to say, I won!"

Brian, you may have won in your struggle against reality, but please don't expect the rest of us to go along with your departure from the real world.

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Replying to:

John,
There are plenty of people who possess the knowledge that I possess. There are plenty who know more about this subject than I do. You happen to not fit into either one of those groups.

If Huxley wrote that monkeys (modern monkeys, as we know them) turn into men, he was wrong. And if Darwin said that monkeys turn into men, he was wrong. But my guess is they didn't say quite that (in context). My guess is they both wrote that monkeys and men are descendants of a common ancestor, an ape-like creature. This is a subtle, but extremely important distinction. However your assertion that monkeys turn into men, and Julie's challenges to "evolve" a mouse into a bat, and the entire message that is presented graphically on the billboard show that you do not understand this fundamental point.

Re: transposons
You maintained for a long time that all DNA mutations create nonfunctional, "corrupted" DNA. You have since recanted on this, admitting that mutations in fact USUALLY are detrimental, but not always.

More recently you suggested that no mechanism exists for adding DNA code to an existing genome. ("I repeat, alteration of the DNA code, whether by radiation, chemical, diet or other environmenmtal factors, CANNOT CREATIVELY ADD CODE" - your caps.) Now you appear to be recanting on that too, since you acknowledge the existence of transposons, which are in fact pieces of DNA code that add to an existing genome.

So John, to answer your question, "IS transposition EVER beneficial?" The answer is yes.
"we have identified an adaptive transposable element insertion, which truncates a gene and apparently generates a functional protein in the process. The insertion of this transposable element confers increased resistance to an organophosphate pesticide and has spread in D. melanogaster recently."
Aminetzach et. al., Science, 2005 (309) 764.
Look it up yourself.

Your Poorly-Presented Argument

Brian:

What you are trying to say, in your rather garbled fashion, is that transposons are mutagens which can alter genetic structure by insertion. Yes, this is true. I NEVER disputed that. I NEVER said that radiation was the ONLY means of mutation. I merely said, in a world without widespread man-made chemical and food pollution, background radiation was the PRIMARY means of mutation. Here are my exact words:

"The only change possible under Darwinian theory, is by DNA mutations caused PRIMARILY by background radiation in the atmosphere."

-John, "Let's See How Evolution Works - How do Constructive Adaptations Occur?" Sep 21, 07 - 1:14 PM

You are choosing to ignore the word "primarily," and are acting as if I did not say it, thereby changing what I actually said. Further, even though transposons CAN alter DNA in a positive manner, they usually either render the gene inoperative, or they cause human genetic disease, hardly a boon to evolution. Possible, yes, but NOT a PRIMARY CAUSE of positive mutations by any means.

Moreover, the thrust of my original statement had to do with the lack of intelligent direction in DNA alteration that Darwinist strictly adhere to. That is what I meant by DNA code not being CREATIVELY produced. Read what I said in context with the original quote I used. Your subsequent comments reveal that the gist of what I actually said sailed right over your head.

Here is what transposons are capable of:


Transposons and Mutations

Transposons are mutagens. They can cause mutations in several ways:

If a transposon inserts itself into a functional gene, it will probably damage it. Insertion into exons, introns, and even into DNA flanking the genes (which may contain promoters and enhancers) can destroy or alter the gene's activity. The insertion of a retrotransposon in the DNA flanking a gene for pigment synthesis is thought to have produced white grapes from a black-skinned ancestor. Later, the loss of that retrotransposon produced the red-skinned grape varieties cultivated today.

Faulty repair of the gap left at the old site (in cut and paste transposition) can lead to mutation there.
The presence of a string of identical repeated sequences presents a problem for precise pairing during meiosis. How is the third, say, of a string of five Alu sequences on the "invading strand" of one chromatid going to ensure that it pairs with the third sequence in the other strand? If it accidentally pairs with one of the other Alu sequences, the result will be an unequal crossover — one of the commonest causes of duplications. Link to an example of a mutation caused by unequal crossing over.

SINEs (mostly Alu sequences) and LINEs cause ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE of human mutations. (There may even be a mechanism by which they avoid inserting themselves into functional genes.) However, they have been found to be the cause of the mutations responsible for some cases of HUMAN GENETIC DISEASES, including:
Hemophilia A (Factor VIII gene) and Hemophilia B [Factor IX gene]
X-linked severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) [gene for part of the IL-2 receptor]
porphyria predisposition to colon polyps and cancer [APC gene] Duchenne muscular dystrophy [dystrophin gene]

What good are transposons?
We don't know.

They have been called "junk" DNA and "selfish" DNA.
"selfish" because their only function seems to make more copies of themselves and "junk" because there is no obvious benefit to their host.

Because of the sequence similarities of all the LINEs and SINEs, they also make up a large portion of the "repetitive DNA" of the cell.

-caps mine

I will give the reference for the above and deal with more of your distortions next.

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Replying to:

Please clean up your acts and keep focused on debating the issue.

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Replying to:

Brian:

You are debating someone, but it is not me. Your answers and comments are non-responsive to mine. You make statements about things that you say I said, but in fact I never said. You are even putting words in Julie's mouth that she never wrote.

You seem to have an invisible friend you are debating, and you remind me of the character in the movie "Harvey." He had an invisible friend too, and when he was asked by a shrink to explain himself, he said:

"Well, Doc, I've been wrestling with reality for many years, and I'm glad to say, I won!"

Brian, you may have won in your struggle against reality, but please don't expect the rest of us to go along with your departure from the real world.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

John,
There are plenty of people who possess the knowledge that I possess. There are plenty who know more about this subject than I do. You happen to not fit into either one of those groups.

If Huxley wrote that monkeys (modern monkeys, as we know them) turn into men, he was wrong. And if Darwin said that monkeys turn into men, he was wrong. But my guess is they didn't say quite that (in context). My guess is they both wrote that monkeys and men are descendants of a common ancestor, an ape-like creature. This is a subtle, but extremely important distinction. However your assertion that monkeys turn into men, and Julie's challenges to "evolve" a mouse into a bat, and the entire message that is presented graphically on the billboard show that you do not understand this fundamental point.

Re: transposons
You maintained for a long time that all DNA mutations create nonfunctional, "corrupted" DNA. You have since recanted on this, admitting that mutations in fact USUALLY are detrimental, but not always.

More recently you suggested that no mechanism exists for adding DNA code to an existing genome. ("I repeat, alteration of the DNA code, whether by radiation, chemical, diet or other environmenmtal factors, CANNOT CREATIVELY ADD CODE" - your caps.) Now you appear to be recanting on that too, since you acknowledge the existence of transposons, which are in fact pieces of DNA code that add to an existing genome.

So John, to answer your question, "IS transposition EVER beneficial?" The answer is yes.
"we have identified an adaptive transposable element insertion, which truncates a gene and apparently generates a functional protein in the process. The insertion of this transposable element confers increased resistance to an organophosphate pesticide and has spread in D. melanogaster recently."
Aminetzach et. al., Science, 2005 (309) 764.
Look it up yourself.

Re: Your Poorly-Presented Argument

discussion continued under "To John re: Your Poorly-Presented Argument"

Where is your evidence?

In regard to your comment:

"Second, you have changed your tune with respect to how mutations occur. Fantastic. Yes I agree, there are many ways that mutations occur. We're moving forward."

It's interesting that your faith in evolution precludes the fact that you don't know how it actually occurs. When given the chance to reflect your vast knowledge of it, this is all you could offer:

"The answers to your questions are unknown."
See http://pub17.bravenet.com/forum/1424646898/fetch/746945/

Do you believe that theories MUST be backed up with empirical evidence in order for them to be considered fact or is it OK to toss out claims and promote them as fact with absolutely no empirical evidence behind them?

In regard to your comment:
"I directly quoted many peer-reviewed scientific journals. If you don't believe what I wrote, read the article, then e-mail the corresponding authors of the articles. They'll tell you what they meant, then they'll provide the data to back up what they wrote."

Yes, they also make up wild claims with absolutely no empiral evidence substaintiating them:

The following is from a peer-reviewed journal published by the Public Library of Science:

“Why Most Published Research Findings Are False”

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0020124

Summary: “There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false … Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias.”
Corollary 5: The greater the financial and other interests and prejudices in a scientific field, the less likely the research findings are to be true.
“Conflicts of interest and prejudice may increase bias, … Prejudice may not necessarily have financial roots. Scientists in a given field may be prejudiced purely because of their belief in a scientific theory or commitment to their own findings.”
Corollary 6: The hotter a scientific field (with more scientific teams involved), the less likely the research findings are to be true.
“This seemingly paradoxical corollary follows because, as stated above, the PPV of isolated findings decreases when many teams of investigators are involved in the same field. This may explain why we occasionally see major excitement followed rapidly by severe disappointments in fields that draw wide attention. With many teams working on the same field and with massive experimental data being produced, timing is of the essence in beating competition. Thus, each team may prioritize on pursuing and disseminating its most impressive “positive” results. “Negative” results may become attractive for dissemination only if some other team has found a “positive” association on the same question. In that case, it may be attractive to refute a claim made in some prestigious journal. The term Proteus phenomenon has been coined to describe this phenomenon of rapidly alternating extreme research claims and extremely opposite refutations. Empirical evidence suggests that this sequence of extreme opposites is very common in molecular genetics.”

Re: Where is your evidence?

Hi Julie,

Yes, I have unselfishly shared a wealth of my scientific knowledge with you and others on this board, even though it's a thankless job. Sometimes I feel a bit under appreciated, but it's my choice.

I'm curious why you would suggest that I don't know how evolution occurs. I'm not going to bother rehashing things that I've already written, because any reader who has gotten this far knows the score. But I'll leave you to reflect on what your motive for dishonesty is.

Finally, as I wrote in a separate post re: the PLoS article, remember that the scope of their findings is very narrow, that the title of the article is absurd, and that their methodology is suspect. Still, it is interesting that you choose to believe this particular article, but none of the others in scientific journals.

One more chance

Since we've given you multiple opportunities to share with everyone exactly how evolution works (as in the name of this forum), we'll assume you can't get past the theorical into application.

You might review the thread above named 'Deleted Postings'
http://pub17.bravenet.com/forum/1424646898/fetch/730388/

"While we realize that most postings are constructive, the determination of which ones are deleted is purely based on our admitted biased opinion. However, we do attempt to retain postings that are constructive and to the point, but we also 'clean up the board' and delete unconstructive rantings and postings that do nothing but pontificate (which include some of mine) and include nothing but opinions without supporting scientific references.

Supporting articles, research papers are needed to substantiate your argument. Blogs and your personal opinion do NOT qualify as 'evidence.'

If you look at our previous forum @ http://www.123forum.com/777 you can see that we were more than accommodating by retaining many postings that included personal slams and juvenile conjecture. We're not that accommodating anymore.

Most evolutionists and creationists desire a robust and respective debate and that is our goal, however imperfect our attempts may be."



If you would like to offer empirical evidence for the theory of evolution, go ahead. Otherwise, I will delete your postings as I did before as they are a waste of time for those of us who desire a constructive debate instead of a philosophical argument.

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Replying to:

Hi Julie,

Yes, I have unselfishly shared a wealth of my scientific knowledge with you and others on this board, even though it's a thankless job. Sometimes I feel a bit under appreciated, but it's my choice.

I'm curious why you would suggest that I don't know how evolution occurs. I'm not going to bother rehashing things that I've already written, because any reader who has gotten this far knows the score. But I'll leave you to reflect on what your motive for dishonesty is.

Finally, as I wrote in a separate post re: the PLoS article, remember that the scope of their findings is very narrow, that the title of the article is absurd, and that their methodology is suspect. Still, it is interesting that you choose to believe this particular article, but none of the others in scientific journals.