Sorry. I meant to include the backlit photo. Also I think the first one is a Lerma but not sure. Nice patina and material. It was found today on a game trail. Man was I excited. The broken base blade was found on a gopher mound about 10 yards from the Lerma about 10 minutes later. I think it's a Scottsbluff but what is left of the base does not appear to be ground. The second Scottesbluff looking blade with the broken tip was found last week and does not seem to have any basal grinding so I am not sure if they are Scottsbluff. These were found in Colorado Co on a friends ranch.
Please ignore the Bi-pointed blade. My question is does anyone think the others are Scottsbluff or some other type? The one with the broken base has a tiny bit off base left but does not appear to be ground. The broken tip one with the complete base does not have any basal grinding either. I have always assumed that Scottsbluff had ground bases. Am I right or wrong? Or are these not Scottsblff. Maybe some other type point? Any idea? Any help or info would be appreciated. These are the only style of this point I have found. I thought Scottsbluff but I'm stumped by the lack of basal grinding.
K, perhaps it would help if you photographed those points against a solid background. Holding a point in your hand for a photo is not the best venue for typing. The background setting can greatly enhance or detract from the primary point of interest.
Take a guess. I know you have an opinion. The longer point with the broken base does not seem to have any basal grinding but there is not enough to be sure. Maybe a little bit. The point with the broken tip has no base grinding at all. I'm looking for some advice. Maybe Scottsbluff are not all basal ground. Anybody agree...disagree...? Maybe some other type point. Looking for some guesses other then mine. %%bbCodeItem_1%% %%bbCodeItem_2%% %%bbCodeItem_3%% %%bbCodeItem_4%% %%bbCodeItem_5%% %%bbCodeItem_6%% %%bbCodeItem_7%% %%bbCodeItem_8%%
K., Thank you for the new photos. The flaking on the point with the broken base is right for a Scottsbluff, the base is gone so the existence or non existence of basal grinding is a moot point. I would go with Scottsbluff. The second point with the broken tip is a tough call, all the references say that Scottsbluff bases are ground. There is a very similar point called a Holland from the same time period found in the midwest that does not always have a ground base. If there is no sign of breakage or dings around the shoulders where there may have been some ears, then I would go with an unground ( maybe the first of its kind) Scottsbluff Two. The very worst that can happen is that I'm wrong
Thanks for your input. I think they are both Scottsbluff too. The one with the broken tip has me stumped. No grinding at all on the base but sure looks like a Scottsbluff form. Like you said, the worst thing that could happen is that we are wrong. Maybe someone else has seen an unground Scottsbluff. That's why I posted here. Needed some input. I'm no expert. I do know that not all points fit perfectly in some catagory. I'm just a flint hound. Thanks again. Also would enjoy hearing anyone's opinions.
Now that Red has spoken, I'll second the motion.
When I first saw the better pics of the smaller one
I thought " thats not a Scotty " The Scotts that I have [ 2 ] and at the shows, they were VERY serious
about that hint of a shoulder with VERY straight basal sides. Your model has a positive hint of a
"pinched in" design.
Re ALL points must fall into a "type". I have heard of the occasional " oddball" almost impossible to type due to being changed in ancient times
by a finder of another tribal family.
[ I dont think your shorty Scotty is modified ]
You are correct. As you have observed, many times Scottsbluff ginding will be light, if present at all. Also basal variety runs the gamut in Texas. Looks like you might have more around there. mw
One further comment, The first 3 photos are of a quality round base large Lerma. This one I'd definitely hang on to. If they ever resolve the on-going debate on the age Vs. clovis, it's value could be well increased accordingly. Thus, the type has potential to become more highly prized with collectors. I have both styles, but the pointed base lerma seems a little harder to come by.
Any other input on the Lerma versus Clovis debate? I have not heard or read about this but do not doubt it.
Would like to here more about it if someone has something to offer. Is the Lerma found in the same or lower levels? Any evidence suggesting Lerma may be older or around the some periods? Post your input please.
Maybe I should start another thread concerning Lermas. I have several others that I think may be Lerma but am not sure. Maybe someone could confirm. Any intrest in seeing them? Let me know.