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Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Thank you for your post.Very interesting. I understand Elena's point of view. I don't mind the Sherlock Holmes movies. Although I think the first SH is better than AGOS I like them better than the Marvel Super heroes movies. I hope he will stop doing the Iron Man movies after Iron Man 3. I'm getting tired of these popcorn super heroes films. Some people say he is wasting his talent. Honestly I agree with them. I don't mind franchises as long as they are very good. I'd like to see him in the role of Perry Mason. I don't expect him to do art films, but I'd like to see him in any movie genre except popcorn Marvel movies. I hope he will do Gepetto in the next Tim Burton movie. Don't get me wrong, Rocky. I also understand your point of view. I know Iron Man made him a megastar and a millionaire. I'm very happy for him. After all he got through he deserves his success. Of course, nobody can stop him from doing the Iron Man/ Avengers movies. That's his choice, and I respect it.

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I honestly doubt that making money for studios and producers is making any serious actor happy. SH2 was that kind of movie to me, a lame story held together with some inane action scenes. So sad because RDJ, Jared Harris and Noomi Rapace acted their behinds off to make it more interesting, but the material just didn't do them any justice. I hope he still gets a chance to do the P T Anderson project. Iron Man with Shane Black at the helm, I always sign up for that one. Susan Downey was quoted saying that they are not working on any "passion projects" at the moment, so I hope that does not mean more ordinary stuff on the way. He is ridiculously talented and if he keeps doing those dumb movies he will lose the support of the fans who love him for making smart movies and for being just simply magical. I love the guy, I want to see him happy.

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

@ Ray
When did Susan say that they're not working on any "passion projects" at the moment?
As far as I know Team Downey is constantly working on future titles like Yucatan, USS Indianapolis, etc. It's just a matter of time when the first one will get the green light and they're not sure right now which one it will be. But all these projects are in developement and they just add things as they come along.

In general:
As a fan, I also only want to see him happy and he seems to be so when compared to a few years back. During an interview for the second Sherlock Holmes he was asked if he wants to do some independent movies and if he misses the artistic freedom when doing blockbusters. Guess his answer! He replied that he experienced much more freedom in blockbusters than in smaller films. I mean, with IM he has a vote when it comes to directors, writers and actors he wants to work with. With Sherlock Holmes it's more like a familily business. He said so himself and he admitted after the success of the first IM that he went to Joel Silver and asked him when they will launch a franchise. And with Holmes he got that. This one is already kind of a "passion project" for him. Here he works together with his beloved wife and Guy Ritchie with whom he has a very good relationship both on a matter of business and private. They all agreed on having Jude Law as Dr. Watson because the chemistry between him and Robert is one of a kind. Yes, they work their behinds off, but just because they love this franchise so much so they want to make the most of it.
For the 3rd Holmes it seems like Robert was the driving force behind bringing Drew Pierce as the new writer into the game. Pierce is working on the 3rd IM right now and Robert praises his script whenever he gets the chance to talk about it. So I'm quite confident regarding the next Holmes film.
But contrary to some in this forum, I really enjoyed A Game of Shadows - even much more than the first. Yes, the script could have been better (the writers were chosen 3 months before the release of the first film, I don't think that Robert had influence then. Furthermore, taking various interviews and press conference in consideration, Robert and Guy didn't seem to be too impressed with the writing, they changed a lot and tried to do the best with it.). The story was a bit too convoluted, the beginning could have been more gripping and to the point (I believe that this was due to WB because they said that there wasn't enough exposition - hence the re-shoot in October) but overall this movie had me much more emotionally invested than the first and the second half of the movie is just brilliant, incl. one of the best endings (Holmes vs. Moriarty) I've ever seen. Beautifully photographed, acted and executed. The villian was much more compelling to me this time and to me it was important to see that Holmes and his genius mind were actually in great peril. I also liked that they made some bold choices (f.i. Irene) and that Holmes and to some degree Watson underwent interesting character developements as well. I appreciate their aim to show the dynamic between Holmes and Moriarty most truthful to the stories by Doyle. When you take into consideration that A Game of Shadows is mostly based on "The final problem" then they did a fantastic job with it by even telling a much better story than the original one was. Because I always felt that, even so Moriarty is a great adversary for Holmes, the story itself was quite unengaging (which is not surprising given the fact that Doyle just wrote it to finally get rid of Holmes because he got tired of writing detective stories).
But that's just my opinion and for some reason I'm much more into the Holmes franchise than the IM. Comic book movies aren't really my type of movies. They are a nice thing to pass some time but not more. Though I liked the first IM because the interactions between Pepper & Tony and him & Obadiah were great. The second one lost me a bit, but maybe I should give it another chance.
I was really happy when I learned that Shane Black will direct (and partly wirte) the 3rd installment. I love Kiss Kiss Bang Bang to bits and pieces and I'm sure that IM3 will profit immensely from his input.
I'm sure that it was a wise move of Marvel to go along with Robert's suggestion in this case - it only can get better this way.
Regarding Avengers, I have the feeling that Robert just did it because he's contractly obliged (and I as a fan feel obliged to know what happened before the Avengers, so I watched every movie that led to that one, except Thor - but that will change as well*g*). He doesn't seem to be too enthusiastic when talking about it.
But in general, Marvel put him on the A-list of actors. With this comes the money & fame and now he's able to develope his own projects with his production company. So in the end he'll have much more freedom and is able to try different fields like writing, directing. He hadn't had the possibilities 10 or 20 years back. So this is a very good thing for him and ultimately for his fans as well because movies like Yucatan, USS Indianapolis and Emergency would never happen otherwise.

Oh, that is quite some text...
All I want to say is that I support Robert and his decisions fully and that I'm sure that there's a lot in the future we all can look forward to.

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Hm, I doubt it was plain PR. And to me his answer makes perfectly sense. Why is it in the common mind that independent/small movies come with artistic freedom? Both, small and big films, have their pro and contra. Small movies are limited in their budget, you can't work with the people you want to, shooting equipment is dated, etc...With bigger movies you have the studio that interfers with your ideas, there's more pressure, etc...
But Robert is in the lucky position where he can make demands also to big studios. He can say that he doesn't want to work with a certain director, actor ect. because the studio needs him. So they'll more likely try to satisfy his wishes. And as I said before, all these blockbusters give him the opportunity to develope his own projects and getting into the director's chair what he longed to do for 2 decades. And I remember that David Gambino (president of production at Team Downey) said that the projects they're working on will be small to medium budget size.
Maybe we won't get another Chaplin but I'm sure that Robert will grace us with great performances in the future. And to be honest, Chaplin as a movie has it's flaws too. Not performance-wise (he was astonishing, the rest of the cast was great as well) but the story could have been a bit more focused opposed to trying to cover nearly every year of his life.
But he gave brilliant performances in the recent past as well, but not embraced by the coat of a higly intelligent movie. I mean, he even got an Oscar nom for his character Kirk Lazarus, played in Tropic Thunder. And that's a huge achivement. Normally, comedies don't get noticed by the Academy Awards but his performance was so stellar that they couldn't pass this ;)

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I don't really care if he is doing blockbuster movies or independent movies, as long as they are good ones. If he wants to continue with Tony Stark after IM3 and its still fresh and fun, I don't have a problem with that. Nothing wrong with interesting and good movies making tons of money. But sometimes I think the moneymaking desire is messing with the quality of the movie and IMHO that was the case with SH2. If I spend my hard earned money at the cinemas, I don't want to see predictable stuff and I really don't like being patronized - simple as that. BTW, the "passion project" quote if I remember correctly was just recently during the PR of SH2 and it was in one of the major magazines, cant remember which one though.

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I also like that quote and it's true to some degree with the Sherlock franchise. But until now they still managed to balance it quite well in my eyes. They made sacrifices to please the general audience but they also made some bold choices as well, esp. in A Game of Shadows.
What makes me worry though is the vision the producer Joel Silver has for the franchise. While I wouldn't object to getting more than 3 parts (I'm greedy and I can't get enough of Robert's Holmes) it concerns me that he would like to have a new girl for Sherlock in every movie, like James Bond. Holmes isn't Bond though (Watson would fit the bill better hehe) and it would greatly differ from his personality to have a love interest every other year. Even though these are blockbusters these films don't need a romance for the main character. Holmes is a rich enough person without this.
I see that they originally wanted to establish Simza as the new girl for him (they kiss in the first trailer) and I'm forever grateful to the people in charge who decided against it. Even though in the end Simza was left with so little to do because there seemed to be quite some scenes with her that didn't made it into the film.

Regarding your other point, Elena: do you mean that he needs the joy as kind of a substitute?
He has quite a list for that already (wing chun, yoga, Susan) and he always seemed to be someone who was trying to make the most fun out of every situation. And now since he's able to choose he opts for the people/projects where it's easy for him to enjoy himself.

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Elena
do you mean that he needs the joy as kind of a substitute?



For me, Simza is absolutely stupid, asexual character It is the axioma: Holmes can love only one woman in the world and she is not Simza. I am still hoping Irene will be back in 3rd film, not as cameo. Without her SH falls to soap-opera.

Elena,
You might want to watch AGOS again sometime!
Simza was NOT romantically involved with Sherlock or Watson. She was just involved in the case.

And Irene was murdered by Moriarty. Therefore, she will not be in the 3rd movie - except as a memory or maybe a ghost! LOL!!!

Country USA

Age (opt) a few years older than Robert

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

DrSues (Administrator)
Elena
do you mean that he needs the joy as kind of a substitute?



For me, Simza is absolutely stupid, asexual character It is the axioma: Holmes can love only one woman in the world and she is not Simza. I am still hoping Irene will be back in 3rd film, not as cameo. Without her SH falls to soap-opera.

Elena,
You might want to watch AGOS again sometime!
Simza was NOT romantically involved with Sherlock or Watson. She was just involved in the case.

And Irene was murdered by Moriarty. Therefore, she will not be in the 3rd movie - except as a memory or maybe a ghost! LOL!!!


I am fan of the Sherlock Holmes Novels and DrSues is correct Irene was murdered by Professor Moriarty she will not be back. Also according to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's books the character Irene Adler is a fictional character featured in the Sherlock Holmes story "A Scandal in Bohemia" published in July 1891. She is one of the most notable female characters in the Sherlock Holmes series, despite appearing in only one story, and is frequently used as a romantic interest for Holmes in derivative works. Yes Irene only appeared in one book.

To Sherlock Holmes she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex. It was not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind. He was, I take it, the most perfect reasoning and observing machine that the world has seen, but as a lover he would have placed himself in a false position. He never spoke of the softer passions, save with a gibe and a sneer. They were admirable things for the observer — excellent for drawing the veil from men's motives and actions. But for the trained reasoner to admit such intrusions into his own delicate and finely adjusted temperament was to introduce a distracting factor which might throw a doubt upon all his mental results. Grit in a sensitive instrument, or a crack in one of his own high-power lenses, would not be more disturbing than a strong emotion in a nature such as his. And yet there was but one woman to him, and that woman was the late Irene Adler, of dubious and questionable memory.

This "memory" is kept alive by a photograph of Irene Adler, which had been left for the King when she and her new husband took flight with the condemning photograph of her and the King. Sherlock had asked for and received this photo as his payment for his part in the case. This photograph is one of his most prized possessions. Holmes himself, who rarely noticed such things, told Watson that "she was a lovely woman, with a face that a man might die for." and if most of you remember Sherlock had Irene's picture on his desk in the first film.

This is part from the book A Scandal in Bohemia. So in theory Irene, honestly shouldn't have been in this film, but unfortunately she was. Also in the future Sherlock Holmes Novels Irene is never know by name she is only referred to as "The Wonan" or "Woman"

Country USA

Age (opt) One Year Older

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

First, thanks Rocky for writing down the paragraph about Irene - I would have been too lazy for this :)

There is an interesting interview with Joel Silver and Susan (http://www.iamrogue.com/news/interviews/item/5456-iar-exclusive-interview-producers-joel-silver-and-susan-downey-talk-sherlock-holmes-a-game-of-shadows.html where Silver elaborates a bit on the decision to bring Irene back for the second film even though they want to go the James Bond route with a different girl in each movie:

"[...]we always wanted to just have essentially Sherlock, Watson and a few other peripheral characters like Mrs. Hudson; the woman in the house, or the cop; Inspector Lestrade. But we always intended to have a different kind of girl for each movie. We just thought it was nice to kind of close the chapter on Irene Adler because she was actually in the books. She was in one story and Holmes did think about her a lot. It was complicated getting (Rachel) to come back on board. She liked the experience (of the first film), she loved being with us, but she hoped to have a bigger role. I think at the end of the day it worked out fine. I think of the opening scene of the movie like it's Sherlock 1A before Sherlock 2, just that little scene feels like it came out between the two movies. Then when the logo comes on, we're starting the next picture, and I think it worked out for us. I think she did a great job for us."

So it seems that Irene's faith is definitely settled, Elena. I also really liked her, but in my opinion it wouldn't work to bring her back for the third. Not because she only appeared in one story but because they decided to kill her off and it would belittle the impact her death made to the story and would make Moriarty look like an amateur.

So I hope that they'll handle the future girls with respect and don't make it into a soap-opera, how you called it.
All indications for a new girl are there, comments made by Silver (James Bond) and also by Robert. I recall an interview where he said that Holmes doesn't have a lot of sex in the two movies and that it could change in the next one.
If they really have to get Holmes a new love interest then the only way to do it is to make it convincing and respectful.

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

To Elena

"such a stupid picture of winter Moscow, haha. Hope Holmes will never go to Russia. There in Hollywood nobody can show Russia truly."

Your country is not the only one that's not correctly represented by american films, but it's not their fault. Spain seems a caricature in american films, they only show some stereotypes and folklore, but it's normal. So don't be offended. I was told a case of a spanish boy who went to live some time in USA and the owner of the flat where he went to live showed him the washing mashine and told him that it was for washing the clothes, and asked him if he had ever seen one in Spain! . Sometimes they think that the rest of the world is the third world

Country Barcelona (Spain)

Age (opt) 30

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Teresa is right. In most movies you'll find stereotypes for a lot of countries and people. I mean, just take SH2: gypsies steal your cloths, drink and dance. Germans only in military uniforms, shouting and looking angry (ok, they were at a weapon's factory, but why were there all these military men in the first place?). SH1: I thought that Blackwood was quite stereotypical as well even though Mark Strong played him very well given the script.
It happens all the time...

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I see your point, Rocky. It's not that I don't like the fact that he is doing blockbusters that make millions of bucks for the studios. He hasn't been in blockbusters before, and I know Iron Man gave him the chance to be in one. As S. says, it also made him a megastar. He was unknown outside the US before IM. I like the fact that IM brought success and fame for him. I like the fact that he has made new fans not just in the US but all over the world. If he hadn't done IM the world wouldn't have discovered this talented, charismatic actor. After all he has gone through all good things finally came to him. I am very happy for him. However, sometimes it would be nice to see him in movies that will bring acclaim for him, not just money.
George Clooney does art films because he likes doing this kind of movies. He doesn't take a particular role just because he thinks it will hit the box-office and make millions of dollars. The fact that he likes doing quality films shows he doesn't do films just for the money. I'm not saying Robert is doing movies just for the money. He says he is a movie nerd. That's why he wanted to become an actor. I know he is very dedicated to his craft. But I'd like to see him follow the George Clooney route.

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I'm enjoying this conversation/debate, too :)

Yes, George Clooney does some awesome movies but Robert is just not there, yet. Eventually, he will move in Clooney's direction but I think that his films will still be quite different from the ones George makes. Clooney seems more the earnest type and Robert is quite the opposite. I'm not saying that he won't do serious projects (most of the already announced ones are not on the light side) but he'll always search for the fun element in movies as well - being in the movie itself or coming from the people who are involved with production, etc.
I suppose, money is not the issue anymore just finding the time to push some of his own projects. I guess that this will happen after IM3 finished filming. Maybe he takes a pause for the new baby but after that and before Sherlock Holmes 3 would be a good time to concentrate on stuff he has lying around for a while :)

@ Ray
Thanks for the info that you read it in some article - will try to find it.
May I ask why you felt patronised by the second Holmes movie? I mean, this is a really strong word and I'm sure that noone involved wanted to evoke such a feeling in any viewer.
I mean, they have to be careful to not make the character Holmes too foolish. Even though I laughed at the pony scene I could have done without and it doesn't really fit his persona. The 1. train scene could have been better executed, some scenes and line-delivery made me a bit cringe. All in all a bit too much.
But we shouldn't forget that it was Robert's idea to dress as a woman. And while I don't think this was a bad move (Holmes did this in the books as well), they could have made him a bit better looking. The end result just felt like it was there for comedic relief and I don't think this was actually intended regarding the looking part. Though I get why Robert thought it a good idea... Showing up dressed like that on Watson's honeymoon - kind of getting into competition with his new wife ;) And I really liked Mary's reaction to it - well acted!

I just read that Guy signed on for making a 3rd movie and they most probably will shoot in Hollywood. While they intended to move the story to America for the third installment right from the beginning when they made the first one, I really think that Robert is the main reason why they actually will shoot there. I mean, they could fake the US landscape of the 19th century as well as they did it with London, Paris, Germany and Switzerland while staying in GB. But I already had the feeling some months ago that they'll move the production to the US because of the new baby. They even said so in the article. Of course this could be a pleaded reason but I think Guy and the team would be happy to shoot in England - at least some parts of it. F. i. Guy is a father of a very young child as well - Jude has his family in London as well. But with this decision one can see how much influence Robert has nowadays and how close his relationship with the director is that he's willing to change the continent on which they will film on.
I hope that they'll be able to contain the Victorian mood and keep the main people behind the movie (costume & set designers for ex.) and that they won't mess with Holmes too much. Because somehow to me Holmes is connected with London very deeply and I have a hard time seeing him in the US (canonly he has never been there - at least it isn't mentioned).
But all in all I love their depiction of the books so much even though they aren't overall faithful.
When reading the books my main interest lies in the way HOW Holmes is able to solve the cases. When watching the movies my main interest lies IN Holmes HIMSELF (and his interaction with the people around him). Robert made the character so much more compelling to me.
Though I do hope that they will focus more on his brilliant mind next time and give the audience something to wonder about/solve as well. What fuels the hope is that Robert said in an interview that he likes to focus more on the mystery and crime-solving for the next one. After saving England, and now Europe he doesn't feel that they should go even bigger. Stepping a bit down and having something more private for the "only consulting detective" sounds nice to me :)

Country Germany

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Thank you for sharing the info on Guy Ritchie signing on for the next SH installment. I was glad to hear that Robert would like to focus more on mystery and crime solving in SH3. Rob, you got it right! That's exactly what the audience expect from the third movie. I also hope that there will more focus on Sherlock's powers of deduction and giving the audience something to solve. Like Ray, I don't want something predictable. The audience should be given something to guess/ wonder about. I don't want something bigger either. Just a story about a new case for the detective to solve. You said they had to be careful not to make the character too foolish. That's exactly what I was trying to tell you. I said Robert's Sherlock looked ridiculous with these silly disguises. As Robert says, SH is a 'weirdo'. I got that, but the character's eccentricity was exaggerated in the sequel. That's why I didn't like his interpretation of the detective this time. At least, it is toned down in the first movie. I hope it will be in the next movie. They should focus more on his brilliant mind than on his eccentricity. I expect to see a detective, not a clown. I don't mind the slow motion effects but Guy Ritchie shouldn't use them more than necessary.

Re: Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

As for the disguises, I wrote my opinion to that in the other thread about Sherlock Holmes 3 - don't want to repeat myself ;)

I think I'm kind of a fan of Ritchie's slow-mo. I really like how he uses it and it creates beautiful images.
Though I agree that he uses it in the second Holmes quite excessively and I can understand when this is a bit too much for some people.
Esp. the wood sequence is probably a love-or-hate thing.
When I saw it for the first time it nearly threw me off the movie but with the second view I started to enjoy it and now after watching this movie several more times I really appreciate this sequence as kind of a piece of art. Yes, it still makes the movie and the story stop (sometimes literally *g*) but the images that it creates in connection with the music stops my breath every single time. The only small gripe I have with it is the small part right after they all fight each other after "Little Hansel" put everyone to the ground. Or not how they fought, but more precisely how the camera moved during this. To me it feels to comical, but I'm sure that there are people who would argue against it as well :)
All in all I really loved the wood scene, how the canon is ripping apart tree after tree and the protagonists are nearly motionless, how the close-up of Moran shows his eagerness to get to them, how the bullet grazes Watson. One picture really got me already by the first viewing:



All I could think was that I really need the DVD so I can put it as my desktop background. Yesterday I found it on some website (http://www.fxguide.com/featured/a-game-of-shadows-more-to-the-mystery/) and guess how my desktop looks like now :)

Country Germany

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Thank you Rocky, I didn't know how to express what you said. I really love Iron Man and Sherlock Holmes, and for me Robert can continue doing this roles 10 years more.

Country Barcelona (Spain)

Age (opt) 30

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

That was a great post Rocky!

I have seen many interviews where Robert says he does not want to do an Art or more independent film at this point in time. He seemed happy to be doing Holmes and Ironman. I think just recently he said he would only stop doing them when people get completely sick of them lol.

Of course I never will! I love both movies, especially Sherlock Holmes (I loveEnglish accents,)

It's too bad Chaplin didn't gross more, I have seen it and think it was a great film.

Age (opt) 13

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

It's great to have the film maker's POV, Rocky. I will add that the Team-Downey projects all look very exciting so in addition to the franchises we will be seeing him in projects he developed himself and has passion for. If Robert's happy I'm happy.

Country USA

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Thank you Rocky for your post. You said it all and as Judy said, from your POV as a film maker. His endless and unlimited talent allow him the leeway to do any role he desires, successfully. Robert really wanted to do IM ..... he's had that desire since childhood I'm sure. No one else could possibly have been Tony Stark/Iron Man. He made that role his very own.

Country Walnut Creek, Calif USA

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

I'm kind of torn on this one. I love this actor so much but I must stay that I really hated Sherlock Holmes 2. The story was totally lame, action too. Sick of Guy Ritchies slow-mo plus this whole Holmes- Watson thing is just way too much for my taste. Iron Man on the other hand, I LOVED the first one, the second one was a BIG disappointment. The third one I’m looking forward too just because it’s Shane Black. I know he’s probably stuck with the contract that says he has to do 3 of these and Avengers but then I would really like him to stop with the Iron Man movies. Three is enough, also enough with the Sherlock Holmes too, or at least take a break for a couple of years on that one. I feel like there’s a ton of things he could do out there that’s interesting and can still make money. It doesn’t have to be small artsy or big blockbuster stuff all the time. Not every small artsy film he did was good anyway. Soloist for example I thought was awful. I think he just needs to find the right balance. I’m really excited about some of the project that he and Susan have announced for their company (Yucatan, Emergency, Accidental Genius, USS Indianapolis). I just don’t want to see Iron Man 6 or Sherlock Holmes 13 get made. Look at someone like Christian Bale. He did three Batman movies and now he says he’s done with it. He needs to say goodbye to Tony and Sherlock and go explore other things.

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

After skimming through 3 threads with this same conversation, I must implore all of you: Pick your Battles. This is ridiculous.

Go outside, get some air and please, let it go!

Re: No More Iron Holmes Please

Ha...Please Keep the Iron Man and Sherlock Holmes films coming! Keep doing the projects in between that you see fit Robert.

Country USA

Age (opt) 26