In this forum you are free to talk about anything. Please keep it clean. Profanity is filtered out.
Thank You and Have Fun!!!
~Montyman

Thanks for this forum. I need to be able to open up about things with out the judgement of my very criticle homegroups. Both NA and AA. I don't for the life of me know why I keep coming back there. They are so full of their own heads and Cra**

Thanks Again

You are always free to share what ever you are comfortable with. The nice thing about this forum is that you don't have to sign up for anything so you can remain anonymous. Freeing folks to bleed all over the place if they feel the need to.

~Montyman

all I needed was an offer to bleed....

Thanks for such a fresh and honest place. I am married to an alcoholic... not that he thinks he has a problem. We are both Believers. He was an alcoholic when we married and I was not walking with the Lord. He has pulled us both so far away from that life, but my husband seems to be drifting back... and not at a slow pace. We have kids, and I have set up boundaries. Not sure if it is the right thing to do, but it is a coping mechanism. He doesn't come home when he is drinking. So he is drinking again tonight and is not home.

What I am really looking for is a place for the spouse of the alcoholic. Alanon is NOT for me... I don't really believe the whole codependency movement is of God. I need an outlet... a place for support... HELP!!

Welcome. There are issues all over the Bible of people that were co-dependent. I think that the word has been misused and misunderstood.
This is the best difinition I can give you:

A codependent person is one who has let another person’s behavior affect him or her, and is obsessed with controlling that person’s behavior. A codependent is also someone who accepts responsibility for someone else’s irresponsible behavior. A pattern of behavior in which those who are in a close relationship with an alcoholic/addict become in turn dependent upon that person’s chemical dependency. The codependent builds his or her needs and life around the dependent person. The addict is addicted to the drug, but the codependent is addicted to the addict. The addict may also be codependent.

This discribes most people I know that live with people in trouble and are not getting help themselves.
I will look into some resources and ask the others here to suggest some ideas for you.

~Montyman

CODEPENDENCY AND CHRISTIAN LIVING

Top Definition Qualities Enabling Compliance Patterns

On the surface, codependency messages sound like Christian teaching.

"Codependents always put others first before taking care of themselves." (Aren't Christians to put others first?)

"Codependents give themselves away." (Shouldn't Christians do the same?)

"Codependents martyr themselves." (Christianity honors its martyrs.)

Those statements have a familiar ring, don't they? Then how can we distinguish between codependency, which is unhealthy to codependents and their dependents, and mature faith, which is healthy.



Codependency says:

I have little or no value.
Other persons and situations have all the value.
I must please other people regardless of the cost to my person or my values.
I am to place myself to be used by others without protest.
I must give myself away.
If I claim any rights for myself, I am selfish.


Jesus taught the value of the individual. He said we are to love others equal to ourselves, not more than. A love of self forms the basis for loving others. The differences between a life of service and codependency take several forms.

Motivation differs. Does the individual give his service and himself out of free choice or because he considers himself of no value? Does he seek to "please people"? Does he act out of guilt and fear? Does he act out of a need to be needed (which means he actually uses the other person to meet his own needs; the helpee becomes an object to help the helper achieve his own goals).

Service is to be an active choice. The person acts; codependents react. Codependents behavior is addictive rather than balanced. Additions control the person instead of the person being in charge of their own life.

Codependents have poor sense of boundaries; they help others inappropriately (when it creates dependency on the part of the other person rather than moving that person toward independence). They have trouble setting limits for themselves and allow others to invade their boundaries.
A codependent's sense of self-worth is tied up in helping others; Christianity says that a person has worth simply because he is a human being God created. Ones self-worth is separate from the work one does or the service one renders.

Codependents have difficulty living balanced lives; they do for others at the neglect of their own well-being and health; Christian faith calls for balanced living and taking care of oneself.

Codependent helping is joyless; Christian service brings joy.

Codependent are driven by their inner compulsions; Christians are God-directed and can be free from compulsiveness, knowing that God brings the ultimate results.

May I suggest getting plugged into a Celebrate Recovery group in your area. If there is not one close, get to the nearest one available. It's your choice.
Go here > Kimber,

I would highly suggest that you read more material on co-dependency. Don't look so much at the fellowship and people in Al-anon, but insted focus on the litirature. Just because one meeting of Al-Anon is not right for you doesn't mean there isn't one out there that God will lead you to. The fact is, the curch doesn't have much training or knowledge in these areas. Although the problems and solutions are in the Bible; most church ministries simply are not equipt to help people in these areas. Larger churchs will tend to have more helps in these areas.

I'm not much help today as I am feeling down and extremely saddened for a dear friend that has gone off the deep end with little chance of return. My head is not thinking quite clearly.

I don't see anything wrong with you subscribing to my mailers. I have been sending these out since 1997 so they reach allot of people. I will subscribe you and if you feel like you want to unsubscribe just let me know.

Here is who I recomend that you get in touch with: Celebrate Recovery http://www.celebraterecovery.com/index.asp
Go to this site, watch the video and find a group in your area. They help you through co-dependency as well as work with folks on addictions and alcoholism. This is the best place I can think of for you to start.

I hope that helps. And of course you are encouraged to post on our messageboard.

Monty

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Question to my STS family........what is the general format followed at your NA tables? Steps? Traditions? Topics? I ask because of potential for anarchy by not walking on the 12 Steppath blazed by God. While I've no longer rent much space about a tradition here in west Michigan to eschew the 12 Steps for 'topics', it still bugs me. There have been some real lulu's of meetings. Some topics have been; relationships, anxiety, ex-wives, and so forth. It seems to me that a bunch of recovering addicts in a room with the arrogence to improve on something so simple and pure, can be pretty dangerous.

Your feed back is welcomed.

Well, I have always been taught that the most popular topic is one of the Steps or Traditions, but that is saved for the book studies around here. I personaly don't care for the personal stories as being topics for book studies. I think a book study should be the study of the steps and traditions.
As far as other meetings go, Every group is atonymous except in matters effecting NA as a whole. Topics other than the Steps for example are perfectly OK with me as long as those of us who have been around awhile remember our primary purpose. If what ever we share helps our primary purpose then that's a good thing. I have heard some crazy things discussed in meetings as well. When I chair a meeting I always go from the Basict text or other NA litirature. There is allot out there that is approved and good for any open meeting I think. If folks are getting to far away from NA focus it's probebly a new comer, someone who doesn't have a sponsor, or some one who has been around a while but has never been shown in a gentle manner some of the better ways to suggest a topic. However, it is said that we have addict thinking. No, we have a sin nature. Everyone does. So anything I discuss around the tables that is of a positive nature can be directly related to my 3rd Step. My bad attitudes, and pride and so on is not because I am an addict, but because I am human and a sinner (saved by grace of course).
Well, although I am not a stickler for so called proper NA language around those of us who have been here a while, I do think that in meetings where there is always a good chance for a new comer or newbees that we should be careful on how we share.

I try not to get to disturbed by these things. I do allot of praying and going to meetings early and praying over each chair that's set up. I have a key so sometimes that's not possible for every one that is a Christian in the program. If a member doesn't have a key one can certanly pray over the building that the meeting is heald in an hour or so before the meeting. God honors that. Then what ever happens we need to remember that God is in control. We do our part, and be gentle and nice about it. God will do the rest. These challenges will never be completly solved within the fellowship, but we can offer the group the best thing in the world as Christians. Prayer, Deep,therough prayer. You can pray for my spelling as well.

Monty :-)

Hey folks,

please come and check out our new message board and help us get this thing off the ground.

http://charlotte-na.org/board/index.php

thanks,
Les

I can't understand when someone has been in the program for so many years, and has worked all 12 steps particularly #12 Having had a spiritual awakening,says GOD is there higher power, but will not say The LORDS Prayer at the end of a meeting. what is your take on this.
sincerely Dave C.

It's a matter of taking the program the way it was designed or to choose not to. The founders who were obeident to the Lord in bringing us this wonderful program; were absolute about who God was and wasn't. For those who wish not to participate in reconizing Jesus Christ as the solution in AA, well, they dojnm't know their history and don't know the program to it's fullest degree. So to be honest, they are living in a half measure. It works for many, but I want more out of sobriety than a make up your own god conscience. For those of you who question what I am saying all I can tell you is Don't believe me, go to the bopok, the history of our fellowship and read for yourself. It's more than my opinion, it's in the AA approved material if you will do a deep investigation. The problem is, most of todays modern AA members do not know about the roots and the way the program has always ment to be worked. Don't get to upset though my friend. Those who are truly honest, open minded and willing will come to know who this Jesus Christ is at some point in their recovery and when that happens they will be faced with a choice. To turn their will and life over to Him or not too. It's only then that there is the real proof in the pudding. PS, my typo's are many.

Monty

Thanks Monty
I dident exactly get were you said to look up that info
Dave C.

Dave, The best place I knjow to get the real truth about AA and how the Lord Jesus Christ was it's center of focus is to visit www.dickb.com
Dick is reconized as the number one AA historian in the nation and is also a Christian Evangelist. He has written a ton of books on the issue and can prove and backup everything he says. He even has the full endorcement of many of the founders relatives and friends, doctors and even many at the world level.
www.dickb.com

Enjoy!

Monty

After reading some in Sponsor To Sponsor, I found that there are a couple of things I'd like to reply to, as well as another thing.
First is the Lord's Prayer in meetings. AA and NA are not only non-denominational, they are not religious. We have a responsibility not to alienate those newcomers who, for one reason or another, are alienated from Christianity. The Lord's Prayer is clearly a New Testament prayer, and is therefore only inserted to meeting formats to make the Catholic or Protestant feel good. Even for the Christian, it is inappropriate, as the Prayer is an example of a private and personal communion with God - read Matthew 6:5 thru 9. Don't blame me - take it up with Jesus.
In answer to "Clean vs. Sober", most people in recovery would regard this as simply respecting the language of the fellowships and not confusing the focus of the respective meetings. While I have rarely heard anyone asked not to use the term "clean and sober" in an NA meeting, I know of several addicts who have been asked to leave AA meetings for not identifying themselves properly. Would they have been better received had they identified themselves (with the more definitive term) as "alcohol addicts"?
From my own perspective, I regard "Clean and Sober" about like saying "vegetables and carrots." (Guess which fellowship I'm staying sober in?)
In the end it's potatoe / potahto. To each their own and tolerance is the word of the day.
There is another issue that I'd like to introduce that can affect any meeting - misbehavior. The other day I was in a meeting at a church. Across the hall was a church function in which many children were present. The Chairperson had to repeatedly ask for the cursing to stop during the sharing. Oddly, it was members with *multiple years* who were the offenders. In talking with several after the meeting, they justified their language in many ways:
"I didn't come from a f'n nice neighborhood."
"This is how I talk."
"I'm better than I used to be. You should hear the s--t I used to say"
"It's so the tough newcomer can identify with me."
(There weren't any there.)
"I wouldn't have kept coming if couldn't swear."

After everyone was gone I picked up the dozen cigarette butts out of the grass as I usually do...

Okay Monty, two posts in a row may not be good etiquette...sorry.
First, the link to Alcoholics-anonymous is bad. You might want to change that .com to .org.
Second, why haven't you removed that online pharmacy ad from the forum?
Third, do you see any irony in casino links on a recovery site?
I am not a miserably intolerant heathen and I don't bible bash. I criticize dogmatic fundamentalists who don't really get what the Bible says. I might also mention that I take an occaisional inventory that isn't mine - but I give it back.
Don't put too much stock into this one opinion from the WWWild blue yonder.

I read some more of your articles and have come to the conclusion that you feel persecuted for your faith. You might find some relief if you stop proselytizing to the wrong crowd. Do a search for the name "Jesus" at AA's and NA's home pages. No hits... wonder why? Because RELIGION didn't work against our disease. If holy water and Hail Marys cured us, there wouldn't be AA and NA. Spirituality, on the other hand, is indispensible. Don't confuse the two because they are as different as Mother Theresa and 9-11.
You seem to spend enormous effort in trying to tie your PERSONAL religion to the process of twelve step recovery. That's fine - as a personal path, not a righteous mission. If you have rubbed your local fellowship(s) the wrong way and have had bad results, then maybe you need to look at the common denominator and what triggers consequences. Don't mistake my intent - I don't condone the wrongs that have been committed against you (Their Picking on Me), but what actions provoked REACTIONS? Hitting a meeting AS AN EVANGELIST will make you as popular as Jesus throwing out the moneychangers. No comparison there, really - Jesus was justified.
Do what you did and you'll get what you got. Remember that it's a meeting "- in order that no addict, anywhere, need die from the horrors of addiction." It is NOT a potential congregation. No one went there to get converted.
If you like name-dropping YOUR God's name, title and address - check your ego. Most likely it's not about Him - it's about You. God didn't hire the Monty Ad Agency.
If your gut is aching, listen. Maybe it has something to say.
Kudos to your site for the wealth of recovery. You've obviously worked long and hard on creating this valuable resource.
Still, I'd think focusing a little more on sponsor and sponseeship would be in better keeping with the name.
Again - I'm just another guy with a keyboard and internet access. Do good work.

Hey Bob, thanks for the post. That stupid perscription post has been deleted before. Egads, that's really irritating. As far as casino ads on STS I didn't know there wqere any. Did I miss the point? I often do.

Yes I have been persicuted for my faith but that's what my faith says will happen. But it isn't limited to the programs. My God tells me that the world will hate Him and those who proclaim his name.

My website is a place where I can share MY experience, strength and hope freely. Meetings are not nessasarly the place for that if it doesn't directly relate to Drugs or what ever.

Yes the site is opinionated and I have very little hate mail. Yours is not one of them. I love what you wrote. Yes I am passionate about my faith and I believe that I am to be bold in it, but with wisdom.

When I share in meetings I never Bible thump, Jesus preach or try and convert any one. I simply share my story, my hope and the wonderful gifts recovery has given me. The site however is a little differnt and has been going since 1997. I get more email than I can keep up with so my wife and my oldes son help me go through it . I rarely miss a one and so far I have seen so much support and positive feed back including yours. Your critizim is constructive and well thought out. Though I may disigree, I respect your opinions and have always believed that when someone gives an opinion or suggestion that I should always consider it with much thought and not brush it away. So thank you.

The other thing about my site is that it does cater to those Christians who have had terrible experiences in the fellowships but want to stay in recovery. There experience in church has been fine and don't understand why they get the diry looks and shine on's from people when they find out their Christians. These folks rarely speak of their faith because of their fear. But we are all growing and God is still in charge.

The obsenity thing also disturbs me. Not from the new comer but from the old timers and the mid timers if you will. I mean it's OK to say Fu** this and Fu** that but don't anyone be specific about who their Higher Power is. But that seems to be the way of things and I have also seen many grow past that, clean up their speach as well as their cigarette butts, and have even seen many come to a relationship with what Bill W said was the God of the Preachers.

I do not intend to convert anyone. The Bible tells me to go into all the world and make diciples of men, not converts. Diciples are folks who have already turned their lives over to the Lord or who are searching in that direction. The Internet is a wonmderful place for one to express their inner most thoughts about anything and if I actually though I was causing the fellowships heart ach I would be extremely saddened. Yes, I truly believe I am correct about who God is and isn't. I hope that everyone who has turned their will and life over to their Higher power is sure about theirs as well. If I were not positivly sure I would not be able to trust Him. But I do believe that wisdom is the key when speaking. My site is much more openly opinionated than myself in meetings. Everyone knows where I stand so I don't have to try and pounce on anyone. There is enough pouncing done by others to well make up anything I would even try to attempt.

In closing I would like to state how much I appriciate folks who disigree with me and have suggestions for me motivated by unselfish motives and their love for people. Thank you so much for your imput Bob. I take no offence what so ever in what you wrote. Only respect and graditude. And I will get on that silly prescription drug thing.

Sincerely Monty

Hey Bob, one more thing. Jesus was against religious Pharasees. So am I. The articles I write are never about religion they are about Jesus Christ. He is not about religion, He is about relationship. He didn't die and rise again for religion, he did it for people, ALL people. Folks in meetings as well as many churchs think that when someonje shares Jesus they are being religious. At least in my case I don't preach religion. I share Christ, the God of love. Jesus and religion don't mix well, that is why many denominations have shoot themselves in the foot. I'm just glad that God directs us to follow Him, not his people cause we are just a little twisted. Hee Hee.

Monty

Can someone explain the whole sponser thing to me? Thank you.

Di

Hi Di,

This is from my past article "Sponsorship"

A Sponsor

First, for those of you who are wondering what we mean when we say, "Sponsor", and here is the skinny. In 12 Step programs a person in recovery from "whatever" is encouraged to get a Sponsor. A Sponsor is someone a person can be accountable to, someone who has a working knowledge of the 12 Steps and can guide them through the application and implementation of those steps in their daily life. A Sponsor is someone who is honest and has integrity, there are qualities in their life that the sponsee admires and looks up to. Although a Sponsor should never be deemed higher or better than the sponsee, a Sponsor is a mentor of sorts.

I hope that helps.

Ok, let us continue.

Recovering Addicts who are working an honest program of recovery stand apart from our society, we are different, we are the exceptions to the unhealthy world in which we live in today, or at least we should be. Some of us come to a point in our recovery that we find it very important to be of service to another by becoming a Sponsor. Most of us did not ask for the job, we were asked. If you are one of those people who said yes to the call of Sponsorship, let us count the cost shall we.

What ever you may think a Sponsor should be, one thing is clear… Sponsors are different folks, not better folks, just different. I am not talking about achievements. Performance is important, but too many people base their value and worth on achievements. What's more important is character. Consider the following qualities for yourself first, and then as positive goals for your sponsee’s lives.

1. INTEGRITY... Our actions need to be consistent with our values. Integrity means we can be depended on, we are trustworthy, we do what is right in accordance with what we believe.

2. CREDIBILITY... does tie into performance. It is earned by constantly doing our best, being faithful, and following through. Then others will know that they can rely on us. To the newcomer being able to depend on their Sponsor is critical. If they cannot depend on their Sponsor, whom can they depend on?

3. RESPONSIBILITY... is a trait we would all love to see in our sponsee’s. This is reflected by commitment and a willingness to do what needs to be done even when it is UN-COMFORTABLE. Recovery is not about comfort. Recovery is about growth.

4. DEPENDABILITY... Follow-through. Dependable people can be taken at their word, for what they say they will do will be done. They are willing to jump in and act before being asked. They take initiative.

5. TENACITY... Tenacious people do not quit; they hang in there. They stay committed.

Now, do these character qualities fit with who we are all the time? Perhaps not to the letter, but they do need to be a large part of our focus as Sponsors.
I know that some of you reading this are not in 12 Step Recovery, and might think that all this does not apply to you, well, think again my dear friends. If we are going to make a healthy difference in a very sick society, we are going to need to have these character qualities as high priority in our lives. All of us!

My suggestion: Do not spend so much time dwelling on your character defects, start moving towards developing Character Qualities. When we do that, we are living in the solution and not in the problem.

Until next time, have a great day..........

Monty 'man

Montgomery this open for-em is nice how cool I like you site I have a poem about overeaters annonymuis(?)where the women were as big as hippopotamus would uou like it to posted?I also have several others that might be of help if there is an interest let me know.





Spanky

opps sorry about all the spelling errs in that other message.It made me sound kinda dumb. I will try to be more commuinicative in further postings.



Spanky

Spanky,
Yes please post what ever you like here and send me your other sttuff, poems etc. I will add them to my poetry page on the site. Also, How would you feel about writing for my web site? I need someone who loves the Lord and also has experienced the pain and heart ache as well as sobriety and cleantime and victory that goes along with addiction. Possibly your own personal story. You can make it anonymous or not. That's up to you but A monthly colum would be nice.
Also www.recoverytimes.com is looking for writers. Both of our sites are the largest perwsonal recovery sites on the Web. We are both pretty picky about our writers and Tom the editor told me that he trust my judgement. Let me know brother. Love Ya.

Monty

MONTY-MAN WHAT UP?! PROV.25:25-"AS COOL WATER'S TO A THIRSTY SOUL SO IS GOOD NEWS FROM A FAR COUNTRY"-WE ALL NEED GOOD NEWS AND THIS SITE PROVIDES A BUNCH-HEAVEN IS A FAR COUNTRY AWAY BUT AS THE RAIN COMES DOWN SO DID THE SON-WHAT A RECOVERY JOURNEY THIS HAS BEEN.SAW THE PICS OF YOUR FAMILY AND CRITTER'S! WOW AGAIN I SAY WOW! HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU TALK SUCH A CUTE GIRL INTO KISSING YOU? I AM SURE THOSE LIPS OF YOURS WERE MOVING FAST. WOW AGAIN-MEYER'S SPAWN.HA HA
I WILL POST SOME POEMS FOR YA IN THE NEAR FUTURE AND MAYBE THEY CAN BENEFIT SOMEONES LIFE-I AM CONSIDERING THE COLUM OFFER AND AM PRAYING OVER IT. WILL TOUCH BASE WITH YOU AGAIN LATER TODAY-SPANKY

Right on Brother. Look forward to hearing from you here, there or in the air.

Monty

Want Cheese On That?


One night I went to Overeater's Anonymus
The women were as big as hippopotamus
I was there because I wanted to try
The twelve step help was over to cry
Let alone with all that was wrong
It was sad not even a song
The men were for sure in a world of hurt
With half of thier bellies hanging out of shirt
When they told me of a higher power
I wanted to say Jesus and sound the hour
This was a thing I had been told not to do
So I said "what?" "Even if this paper that is blue"
"Yes" they said "Or a doorknob will do"
"Well" I said "Okay the paper then"
Which when tore was two where one had been
"What now" said I to the gathered bunch
In silence they looked at me as if out to lunch
It was super quiet so I tore it again
Now there were four where two had been
"Oh dear" I said "Look what happened"
"with four for sure I will not go off the deep end
But wait TEAR now there is eight
Will it work? will it be great?
There was no response at all you see
They were all stooped and steeped in idolatry
I tossed the paper in the air
Down it fluttered onto a table right there
I said "I am so sorry to offend,
But look there is plenty to lend"
They were bugged and chased me away
So off I drove to leave the curds and whey!

Written by,
Mike Sebastian

10_21_03

10-2007-I kill all day long, when, a person, gets the Holy Ghost, to abate my servants, that was new jerusalem said hollie, glass city, I, kill all day long to make you backslide, teasing, stripping heart of all desire to live for me, letting gums be destroyed, by fiery darts, deseasing, entering into heart, stripping, bringing wrath, hate, carressing dick, with electricty, messing with all day, till the person backslides, then, I have to stop, I, strengthen, then do it all over, again, till they leave, for years, then if I miss I call back, I the Lord, give this prophet to choices, leave or be driven out, killed all day long, he has not done any thing, wrong, God says, said hollie, I, dont need anybody, but, if, they serve, I want them abated in my eyes, I will drive them out, all day, till they wont come back, then, I put new hearts in, draw again, ill, start killing again, moments later, I the Lord, take my servants teeth to abate them, make them want to die, cause I tempt them, carressing dick, with electricty, entering into heart, stripping out, all desire, to live for me, deseasing gums, to abate, this is killing all day long, me, driving, them, out, all day, while they weep, before me, paul sought to get removed, but, I killed all day long, have the keys to hell and death, making them hate me, by torturing, if they fast and pray, I, laugh, cause, they, waste thier time, God says, you can make me, put you in lava, said, hollie, earlier, then, if, not served, this is what peter spoke about, it would have been better if they had not known, killing all day long is God tempting to sin, and if they do, cut off, showed, Jesus, and, I made them hate me, I want you to not have teeth, to embarras you, make you sin, in front of those you witnessed to, to embarras, people lost will see, I will kill them all day long, know they couldnt be saved anyway, only a few survive, I want people in lava to abate, God will persecute his children to tempt them to sin, till they leave