Do you have a opposing opinion about one of my articles? Or do you agree? Either way, post it here and let's talk. Come on, take the challenge.
or

Montyman / Publisher STS Recovery Publications

I love your articles Monty. Have been viewing your website for a few years now, and recommend it all the time. Keep up the good work, and glad to see your health is back! We need ya'!

sober vs clean????

PUHLEEEZE yourself

seems like your the one doing the comparison. but i'll take the bait for a moment

FACTS:
first step in aa is admitting powerlessnes over alcohol
first step in na is admitting powerlessness over addiction

sober:
Habitually abstemious in the use of alcoholic liquors;
Plain or subdued: sober attire.
Devoid of frivolity, excess, exaggeration, or speculative imagination; straightforward: gave a sober assessment of the situation.
Marked by seriousness, gravity, or solemnity of conduct or character. See Synonyms at serious.
Marked by circumspection and self-restraint

clean:
Free from dirt, stain, or impurities; unsoiled.
Free from foreign matter or pollution; unadulterated: clean air; clean drinking water.
Not infected: a clean wound.
Morally pure; virtuous: led a clean life.
Not carrying concealed weapons or drugs.
Free from narcotics addiction.
Showing no evidence of using banned or performance-enhancing substances: proven to be clean before the race.


MY VIEWS:
whatever you choose and keeps you this side of the ground, more power to ya.
i'm an addict. recovery for me goes deeper than being clean or sober. na is all inclusive, allowing me to concentrate on my similarities with my peers in recovery, not my differences

whether your a friend of bill w or jimmy k, it doesnt matter to me. jimmy k, na's founder, called himself clean and sober. he also called himself a recovered alcoholic and addict. sober and alcoholic FOR ME terms that are too limited.

the spiritual principles in the 12 steps we share ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!

Yep, I do some comparing. I love it, it stirs the thinking pot a little. See I got you to post a message and share your views. As far as I'm concerned I'm free from the bondage of mind altering chemicles. That's pretty all inclusive. And yes, I am a very good friend of Jimmy K and Bill W.

The really important thing here is that we do the deal and get better, and grow, mature and be all that God created us to be.

I love a good copy! :-)

Monty

Found your site looking for recovery reading and I am appalled by your perversion of the 12 Step tradition that I know. Here in New York I go to meeting with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, people of every faith and color and from every corner of the globe. You have the gall to suggest that because we are willing to allow for each individual to have a higher power of their own understanding, we are all practicing a watered-down version of the Steps? The inclusiveness of the program, the way the rooms melt away petty differences and create a safe place for ALL who suffer from addiction and desire to stop using, is priceless to me.

You're a dangerous man. I wish there were a continent that you and your ilk could settle in, alongside the Taliban and ultraorthodox Jews and every other stripe of fundamentalist. You could war with each other to heart's content, and leave the rest of us in peace.

Hey Ian, Yep your right, I am a dangerous man. I find that when people put man made things before the God who is God then there is where the perversion is. You just can't see it, it's not your fault entirely, satan has blinded your eyes like the Bible says. The same Bible that 12 Step founders used to develope the program that is watered down today.

they said Jesus was dangerous too. Why? because he held the truth. As do I and others who walk with him daily in total grace not dependent on works.

They killed Jesus. Let them come for me too. I refuse to fill peoples ears with lies that keep them from the love and salvation of Christ. Anything else would mean I am not living the 3rd Step.

It's to bad that some folks arn't mature enough to leave their email addy. It's kind of like sending a letter of argument and not signing it.

Thankjs for your opinion though. Now you have heard mine. I stand on the solid rock of Christ before any 12 Traditions.

montyman

KEEP SENDING IN THE HATE MAIL IF IT KEEPS YOU CLEAN AND SOBER. IT SURE HELPS ME TO STAY SOBER! rEALLY IT DOES..

MONTY

Brother Ian from NY,

Thanks so much for your posting. It is so refreshing to hear someone state the courage of their convictions with the passion you did. That we may disagree is irrlevent. After reading your posting, I do however, have a suggestion for you Ian, and I'll give it to you in the King James vernacular, "CHILLETH". Get a grip, CALM DOWN, GRAB YER' KEYBOARD AND LET'S HAVE SOME FUN WITH THIS. AMEN? now, let's take a look at what you wrote and engage in some healthy, adult, recovery dialouge.

".....PERVERSION OF THE 12 STEP TRADITIONS THAT I KNOW"
Probably a true statement....Did you mean, "12 Step Program?" Well, the one you know is not the one that God delivered and was worked 'back in the day'. Check out the history of the fellowship @ Dick B's Website, or read, Bill Pittman's, "AA, The Way It Began".

"YOU HAVE THE GALL TO SUGGEST THAT BECAUSE WE ARE WILLING TO ALLOW FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE A HIGHER POWER OF THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING, WE ARE ALL PRACTICING A WATERED DOWN VERSION OF THE 12 STEPS".
I did not interpret the article Monty wrote to say that. If he did imply that, then I must disagree with him. A walk with Father, a turning over of the life and will (Step 3) is very much about "relationship", not religion. I sat at an NA table last Tuesday night. The 'topic' was anxiety. Never mind that 'topic tables' themselves are a perversion as 'back in the day', most meetings were 'Step' tables. The point is that while a sister had the absolute freedom to share how she handles her anxiety by "meditating on the force from mother earth", believers who share they deal with anxiety by meditaing and being filled with the Creator, not the created, are usually not given the same grace. The Basic Text states (paraphrase)that our right to a God of our understanding comes not from dogma.....is absolute....AND IF WE ARE TO GROW ALONG SPIRITUAL LINES THEN WE MUST BE HONEST ABOUT IT. Hello? Why can't Monty work his program and be honest about his beliefs without being personaly attacked? By the way Ian, if you knew the guy's heart, you might reconsider some of the statements you made.....but hey, that's the beauty of the program and the Steps. When I'm wrong and shoot off my fat mouth about something before giving it any thought, investigation or prayer....there's ol' Step 10 for moments like that....praise God.

".......INCLUSIVENESS OF THE PROGRAM, THE WAY THE WALLS MELT AWAY PETTY DIFFERENCES......IS PRICELESS"
Inclusivity is not achieved by compromise of the truth. Moral relativism is no substitute for God's plan and purpose for man. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof leads to death". Have you ever given much thought to what really 'melts away' our differences? I'd submit to you my bahrutha' that God's grace flows in those rooms in spite of feeble attempts to elevate man to the level of God, or reduce Him to ours, thus "watering down the truth". "When the ties that bind us together are greater than those that would tear us apart, all will be well." Great statement. What does it mean? Again, I humbly submit that the ties that bind, (great Springsteen Jam....are you a fan of the Boss? Betcha' didn't expect that one from this 'fundamentalist'....I'm into fundamentally sound jams....oh sorry.....started riffing there) is not our disease or a compromise of inherent truths masquerading as "inclusiveness". No, those ties that bind us in love are the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit, and the Father Heart of God who loves us addicts. What would seek to tear us apart? Well, Ian, just as there is the highest of Higher Powers, there is also a lower power who seeks to kill, rob, murder and destroy......and divert us from really working those Biblically based 12 Steps.

"YOUR A DANGEROUS MAN"
I could not agree with you more, that brother Monty is indeed a very dangerous man.....but for a different reason. He is a guy who has the balls to strap on and speak the truth in love....with a killer sense of humor.

"I WISH THERE WAS A CONTINENT......LEAVE US IN PEACE"
Brother Ian.....now c'mon, I did not discern much peace or serenity behind a statement like that. I love you enough to share with you.......NO JESUS, NO PEACE! This aint' about bashing. Christ never bashed anyone. Lighten up dude. I commit to praying for you tonight.

Read about the conversion of Bill Wilson at Townes Hospital on page 14 of "As Bill Sees It". That was pretty dramatic. The person of the Holy Spirit entered that hospital room and lit that baby up like a stream of water on burning magnesium. Then, more importantly, God entered into the heart of Bill Wilson (because he asked Him to) so all us demented and perverted maniacs coming down the turnpike would have a simple program of 12 Steps to be used as a tool by God to spiritually regenerate our dead spirit and be set free.

Brother, that is true recovery. Where the Spirit of the Lord is....there is freedom!

You know Tim, This is not that uncommen. It's not so much the person but the spirit. Satan is always doing his best to get people all stirred up. For anyone who is reading this, in my reply to Ian I mentioned that "They" can come for me too. I did not mean to compare myself to Jesus. Egads. Let me clear that up. I ment that I would die before I would deny my Lord. I love Jesus and all people. I praise the Lord for anyone who will post here no matter what they have to share.

Montyman

Monty man and everybody that has written articles. GREAT JOB! Each of them was so wonderful in there unique way. Thank you each so much for sharing the experience strength and hope.

Keep trudgin' and please keep sharing

God Bless Joe

Joe, Thanks Buddy. As you can see by Ian's Post that STS sparks controversy once again. I love it!

Monty

Monty;

Once again you hit the nail on the head. Love your articles. Love hearing about The Lord Jesus. AMEN!
Thanks to you and others that post to your site I now know the truth to 12 step recovery. That truth is Jesus.
I hear so many times that your/my HP could be a tree, light bulb or a door knob. Don't know about the rest of you but those things can't do much for my soul.
I thank God for men and women of courage that will speak out on the Grace of God in His gift of His Son.
As I lay in a local hospital recovering from a suicide attempt a doctor sat on my bed and said the following: "James, I don't usually talk to my patients about this, but, something is telling me to say it to you. When you feel empty, alone, when all is dark, turn to God, He will be there for you and will fill your emptiness."
That was Sept. 27, 1998. In October I started going to a local church. It was the most welcoming, accepting place I had ever beem. In January 1999 I joined. I was still using/drinking at this time. The guilt was too much to bear. God was leaning heavily on my heart. One evening in March of 2000, after calling evry one of my 'friends' to get a ride to the hospital to de-tox, I called my Pastor. He came and got me and stayed all night with me in the ER. It was April 26th, 200 before I got it together and became one of the 'clean and sober' family. I havent had a drug/drink since, PRAISE GOD!!!!!!
I too have run into the 'Christian Baahers'. It makes my heart hurt. I haven't been to a secular meeting in months. I have found some great Christian groups that follow the steps and their Biblical Foundations. After reading your last article, I think I need to go back to the 'normal'? meetings and once again hold my head up and proclaim Christ as my HP. There may be someone there that needs to hear that. I will take the abuse as a badge of honor to my Lord.
Thank you and God bless You.

James Mc.
Fort Smith, AR

James, Keep up the good work on your sobriety/clean recovery. When you return to the secular meetings from time to time remember our fight is not against flesh and blood. It's not against the pagens, the agnostics, the atheist or even the wikins. It's a spiritual battle that the enemy of God would like us to be unsure of. The fact is if the Lord is for us no one can come against us. I believe that AA and NA are used by God regardless of what others believe. In fact (don't tell anyone this they may faint) Bill Wilson wrote "We AA's are God's agents" Agents for what? The message of recovery? Well that's a nice thought but the fact is no one can truly recover without the Lord. If they do, it's still because of the Lords love for them even when they turn from His grace. We need to be in constant prayer for our friends in recovery. But we need not argue with them.
Stand your ground, share your convictions but by all means please do not act out like they do by bashing them or what they believe. How silly theu must feel when we don't retaliate. They can't stand it. And thats sad, but Jesus said that He would be a rock that makes men stumble and a stone that makes men fall. Man will either stumble into His arms of love or they will fall far away from those arms by their own choices. Humm, Jesus or the Group? Humm, Jesus or Religion? Humm, Jesus or the light bulb? Humm, Jesus the son of the living God or some nice and good man who is long dead and still in the grave? Humm, it's way to easy I guess. It's a No Brainer. But how we do like to create our own little gods in order to avoid the truth and justify our actions. Humm, Does that sound like honest recovery? I don't judge these folks, My heart breaks for them. But Steve, we are powerless over other peoples choices, all we can do is shine the light and not act like jerks.
Trust God and Love People buddy.

Monty

PS my spelling needs God. :-)

once again a great story about recovery. Great job to sponsortosponsor for finding people willing to share truth. Keep it up and keep trudgin'!

to the man from NYC I've been thinking for a week about what he shared about "Us" and Monty man if I had to be stuck on an island with you and fellow brothers and sisters of the faith it'd be great. At least the LORD would know where to find us really easily.

Joe

ps side note to the "GUY" from nyc. God bless you. I had that much anger/frustration/aniexity in me and now it's gone. Go figure found Jesus found peace. Chased mythology found misery?

I enjoyed your article regarding the Christians and AA as I enjoy all your articles. Keep up the good work. I will continue to pray for you and your family.

Thanks Betty. Your a blessing.

Monty Man! Good morning and great week. I just re-read John H.'s article for the third time and it still is sitting with me like a bad buritto. Not sure why, but it is. My guess is this one and it's just my guess with no way to back it up unless he and I talk together.

Some of the most boring (yawn) people in the world to me are the "bone chewers." They go through life looking for bones to chew on and then drag that smelly, dirty, disgusting bone with them every where they go. They love that bone and they won't listen to anyone, when they are "kindly" told that the bone stinks and they need to leave it outside.

I've been in recovery a long time and I've seen many people come, explore and find "bones" to chew on so they can tell everyone that recovery sucks!

Most of them are mean spirited and they don't care who they throw up on. They just want to share all the negative information they have and they don't want any feedback. The concept of recovery does work and WE DORECOVER. We need more people out there leading by example not by tirades.

Joe

Hey Joe buddy, I just re-read John H's article again and I'm not sure what you mean. What I got out of his artilce was a man who learned that service work was extremely important for his recovery. I saw encouragement for the newcomer in that article. Perhaps I missed something. Eegads, could this be the first time we have disigreed about something? OH my I'm going to have more hair fall out. Arggggg. Hee Hee. Anyway, thanks for the call the other day. You called me and I dumpted on you with my frustrations. I felt bad about that. Next time I will be a better listener. I was having an extremely bad attitude with people that were not perfect. Hardy Har Har. Love ya brother.

Monty

You obviously don't know anything about dual diagnosis and recovery, in fact, you don't even know how to spell it.
Your statistics, come from some distorted source, I guess.
First of all, 85% of all substance abusers, suffer from some form of mental disorder. The old statistics, from 1995 said, aprox. 65% but it has been upgraded to 85% now. Most people are in total denial about their mental disorders. I also don't like the way you casually mention your Dr. diagnosing you with a mental disorder.. If you want to get a proper diagnosis of your mental disorder, you better be seeing a Psychiatrist, not a D.O., family Dr., M.D., or anything less. I have seen these regular Dr's. diagnose, and prescribe mental medications without knowing anything about what they are doing.. People commit suicide, or do all kinds of crazy things on the wrong medications, especially if they relapse back to drinking, or street drug abuse.. sometimes caused by the wrong medication. If you get a diagnosis from a Dr. that doesn't see you again within 2 to 3 weeks.. he is a quack!!! Dual disorders, and Dual Recovery is serious business, and should not be in casual Denial. Alcoholic's love to deny their problems.
Remember, that 85% of substance abusers, also have a mental disorder.. Get help for it!
The Double Bubble Group of DRA, Okla City.

Humm, Interesting way you addressed me. Negitive and judgemental. First, anyone who starts out a letter the way you did doesn't deserve much credibility.

But thank you for the post

Monty

No.. I don't care if you like me or not.. I care about dual recovery! and the people with dual problems. I got my point across, to anyone who happens to read it. and btw, you spell it DUAL.. not duel recovery!

Well, my first comment is to Tommy. Somewhere around five years clean my life took a drastic change. I found myself not wanting to go to work. Lying on the couch for hours, not being a responsible parent (I am a single dad of 3 young children), having a thought in my mind and not being able to express it. I felt like I was going crazy.

I was one in the fellowship who used to preach about how the steps could fix anything. If you were depressed, you were not not working a through 10th, 11th or 12th step. If you took medication other than for a life threatening illness (diabeties, heart disease, etc.) you were not working a program of recovery. Work the steps I preached.

So here I was. Depressed. Thinking about suicide. I "heavied up" as my sponsor calls it. I went to a meeting every night. I worked my steps. I did service work. I was praying, but I wasnt getting any better. Only worse. Why weren't the steps working?

At the suggestion of others, I went to see a professional. Not a psychiatrist, but a retired M.D. who is in the fellowship and is now a practicing "addictionologist", specializing in dual diagnosis, mental disorders in addicts and alcoholics, and relapse prevention. Before he prescribed anything, we talked for nearly an hour and a half. I felt like I was giving a 5th step. He asked me about my step work, my meeting attendance, sponsorship, home life, work life and anything else we could talk about. Before he prescribed anything, he made sure that it wasn't a lack of recovery.

He diagnosed me as manic depressive, bi-polar and prescribed 2 different medications. Those meds have changed my life. I believe God can heal anything and I reaffirmed my belief that the steps will fix any area of my life, only this time it was the principles of the steps and God that told me it was ok to seek help outside of the circle. I see my "doctor" as I need him. Sometimes not for 2 months at a time and every visit, I do a "mini 5th step". I am grateful I have someone prescribing me meds who is working the 12 steps. Psychiatrists and other therapists, no matter how much education and training, just do not understand the mind of an addict or alcholic without actually being one. They make guesses based on something they read.


My next comment is on th "higher power" thing. I once went to meetings with a fellow who would talk about this big oak tree in his back yard being his higher power. It had withstood time, storms and continued to thrive. It did not judge him. He would sit under this tree and still his mind. Get in touch with nature. He did not believe in this thing we call "GOD" and the fellowship told him he didn't have to. One night he walk into a meeting full of rage, sadness, uncertainty and a whole range of emotions. He had came home from work and found that the power company had cut down the tree. His Higher Power was gone and so is he because of his refusal to believe. It seems there was a power greater than the higher power he chose, the POWER company. The only one who can take GOD from my life is God himself. Even I do not have the power to deny GOD if he chooses to enter my life, which he did nearly 8 years ago.

Grateful Dude..(whatever that said)
I will tell you that it is important for you to get involved (in Recovery) with people like you and me. Dual Diagnosed Recovery! There are things that go on in AA meetings, that just don't suit us, or help us.. You will be amazed when you get involved in Dual Recovery Anonymous. It is a 12 step program much like AA's 12 steps, but I'll tell you that we are a bit different... We don't put near as much emphasis on the God solving your problems for you.
If you are bi-polar, you may have some ideas about why that is.. anyway, I won't go into it here in this "Christian" site... with people who worship an idol.. but, if you want to get into our website, let me know, and I'll send you an invitation..
http://doublebubblegroup.tripod.com

But that's my point Tommy. I do believe God can and will solve all my problems. The way he helps me with my dual illness is to give me the sanity and common sense to seek professional help.

I wish you all the best and I am glad you have found something that works for you, but if you were to put more emphasis on God and allow him into YOUR life, maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge others for doing what works for them.

I hate to sound harsh and don't get me wrong, but from your posts, it seem very angry or bitter with something in your life and seem to be somewhat defensive. God can and will help you with that if you allow him.

take care

Thank you both for your post. I must say however that everyone worships idols. When we put any of our material things before our recovery o0r God, when ever we allow even a fellowship to control us, or when we become so religious that we stop living as Jesus would have us live, we have made idols of those things. As far as Christians worshiping idols, perhaps some do, but I haven't met any that worship anyone but Christ, who is not an idol, but God. And if you don't believe that He is God that's your right, but it doesn't change who He is.
Not judging you at all. It's simply not fair to expect a non-Christian to believe like a Christian. That's something only God can change in a person.

Yes this is a Christian site, and there are Satanic, New Age, Athiest, Muslum, and a wide varity of sites out there. So what? Variety is the spice of life. As far as my spelling goes, yep, I am terrible at it. Oh well. I will work on that.

Until next time, I will still say God Bless.

Montyman

Thanks for letting me post a few messages on your site.. but, BTW, Who did Jesus pray to everyday anyway?? I guess that's my God!!
Tommy

Jesus prayed to the Heavenly Father, ours and His.
That's my God also, When God became flesh and dwelt among us (First John Chapter 1) He was fully God and fully man, Tempted in every way we were bu8t did not sin. The part of Him that was fully man was totally obeident to the Father. When I say that my Higher Power is Jesus Christ I am saying it is God. I know that sounds confusing, but the trinity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 in one but all seperate individules. How? I have no idea, it's by faith I believe and believe what the Bible says. I don't claim to be able to prove the Bible, because it is by faith I believe it. That's all I am saying.

I am glad you posted, because to be honest, I learn more from people that disagree with me than I do from those who agree. I am thankful for that and you are welcome any time.

Peace my friend.

Montyman

I wasn't going to post anymore, but Gratefuldude, you claimed I was being "judgemental", then you insinuated that I have not found God. That is a part of manic depression, and being bi-polar, in that you get delusional, and misinterpret what you see and hear.
Dual Recovery Anonymous is a 12 Step Program, and is a process of finding God, (or rather letting God find you!) in your mind. We have to examine our own delusions, and find reality with our Spirituality. Most of us have had delusional "Gods".. "Demons".. "Devils".. "Jesus's"..
"Oak trees".. but, we work our way back to reality.
AA Groups seldom know how to do that, they are too busy trying to find a god, any god.. Believe me, I have found God, and through studying the teaching of Jesus, and a lot more,.. Not worshiping him.. the invitation still goes to you..

Brother Monty,

Long time no rave! Computer has been on the fritz. Arghhh........recover from a multitude of life threatening bondages, redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.....no problem. Computer crashes? Now that's a real serenity buster. Back on line with a freebie accounbt that will not let me access my Yahoo mail without an upgrade. Arghhhh again. There's always a catch. Anyhoo.....CAT scan came back clean. Praise God! Ready to roll out the 'recovery jams' forum Monty? Lemme' know. On another note, I read the great x-change between you, Tommy, Ian and others. How killer! Father is pleased. Reminds me of the story of Jacob when he wrestled with the Lord all night. It's been brought to my awareness that Father dug it. He loves it when we wrestle with Him because, (at the very least), it involves contact and passion. Of course, the Lord let Jacob "win" but left him with a limp so Jake would know who his Higher Power was. Interesting footnote to that story; one translation of "thigh" (that the Lord grabbed of Jacob's) is...you guessed it......"privates". We could really riff' with that one.........but suffice to say surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is the most "manly" thing any brother or sister could do. I so loved the antidote shared about the oak tree. That rawked! Of all the mini-gods and higher powers chosen in life to assuage the guilt of my rebellion.......the worst god of all was me. In closing, it's good to be back with ya'll. The STS community is an important tool from the toolbox of recovery that God has been so precious to gift us with. Your work is not going unoticed Monty. Father is pleased..........mis-spellings and all. Your article on "Anti Treatment Center Menatlity" was great. Keep up the good work. I make copies and pass them out all over "holy holland" (as my dear sponsor refers to this place). Tommy and Ian.....I love you guys! Keep on knocking, Asking, Seeking and fighting! I too was recently diagnosed with another "co-existing" condition, ADD (inattentive subset) and now take Ritalin prescribed my Spirit-filled MD. I'm accountable to my therapist, sponsor and others. While I'm cognizant of the potential for abuse, but as a former abuser of.......ahem.......opiates, I'm not wired for speed, coke or anything fast. If anything, I can sleep on it. The old-school mentality of "just don't pick up and go to meetings" has some validity, but it does not, nor was it ever intbe a panacea for all of life's woes. Would we tell a brother diagnosed with cancer to "JUST DON'T PICK UP AND GO TO MEETING?" I think not. In addition to the ADD, Hep B & C, cirhosis, insulin-dependent diabetes and a host of other maladies as a consequence of the sin of my using daze, Father is faithful to forgive, redeem, restore and make whole....be it through His divine touch or an MD, shrink, counselor or other wing-nuts at our fellowships. Amen? I don't care how He does it today and no longer dictate the terms and treatment of my recovery from active addiction, opting instead to keep it simple, get out of the way, be obedient in the little things and let God rock my world. Keep on wrestling brothers! At the end of the day, Jesus is Lord and we are not.

Tim, Jesus is Lord and worthy to be praised.!!!

Thanks Tim. Start the music forum dude. Do you know how to get it going here?

Monty

Monty,

As a Christian I am very disipointed in the way the church has treated the homosexuals in this country. Though we do not condone homosexuality we should understand that God love us all and that Salvation is offered to all people. We are all sinners and we all have been in rebellion one time or another and will be again I'm sure. We need to reach out to all people regardless of their behavior. By placing those links on your site you have made a unpopular statement I'm sure, but you reconize that the gay folks out there with drug problems deserve recovery and maybe if they get clean and sober they will be more able to find the Lord. I know I could not until I was sober. We are no better or worse than eachother. It is only because of Christ that we have any hope at all. Praise Him!

All the Best,
Jason

I ALSO DO NOT TAKE A VOTE JANET. IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE FOR HUMANS, SEEMS TO ME IT
IS WHERE IT SHOULD BE. IN GOD'S HANDS. IT'S NOT THE GROUP THAT SHOULD BE
PERSECUTED EITHER.AS WE KNOW ,JANET CAN BE SOMEWHAT OF A OVER-PROTECTIVE HEN, I
BELIEVE IT'S CALLED CO-DEPENDANCEY, OH YEA , I LEARNED THAT ABOUT MYSELF FROM
JANET AFTER YEARS OF FIGHTING THAT FACT. I THINK THIS IS BETWEEN GOD AND
LABRINA, FROM WHERE I'M SITTING, AND SO FAR THAT LOOKS PRETTY GOOD!GOD IS THE
ONLY ONE WHOM'S MERCY REALLY MATTERS ANYWAY, THE REST IS JUST US ON EARTH
DAY-BY-DAY WHEREVER "WE PUT OURSELVES" BUT THEN AGAIN THAT'S JUST MY FEELING.
YOU KNOW JANET WE CAN'T CONTROL HOW OTHERS FEEL,OR EVEN TRY TO UNDERSTAND MOST
OF THE TIME. EXSPEACIALLY IN THOSE GROUPS. I LOVE TUESDAY NIGHTS, THAT'S WHERE
I FEEL SAFE!!!!!!!


SIDE NOTE; WHAT IF THOSE 300.$$ BOLT CUTTERS WOULD OF WORKED? THERE'S THE MERCY
IF YOU ASK ME. THE REST IS JUST PEOPLE STUFF, AND LABRINA PULLED THROUGH SOUNDS
LIKE TO ME. ONE CAN'T REALLY BLAME THE OTHERS TOO MUCH, UNLESS OF COURSE THEY
ARE ALLWAYS UNFARE PEOPLE TO EVERYONE ELSE IN LIFE, AND THEN STILL, THAT'S GOD
'S JOB TO DEAL WTHEM.

LABRINA IS VERY VERY LUCKY I BELIEVE ALL THE WRONGS THAT SHE HAS DONE JANETS
HOUSEHOLD, AND STILL LOOK WHERE SHE LIVES, THAT'S MORE MERCY THAN I HAVE EVER
WITNESSED FOR ANOTHER HUMANN, AND BOY HAVE I MET SOME HUMANS!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAH
LOVE YA
MS. B

Hello:

Ahhh Monty you know I love you and you know that I think you rock. That article about the Gay community is right on! Whenever I'm faced with a "stuck" brain and once in awhile it happens I always fall back to what Jesus said "Who are you to judge?"
I'm a redneck from way back and with lots of help, prayer and time I'm not as bad, but I still twitch every now and then. That I twitch is embarrassing to me, but honestly I do and then that idea of "Who am I to judge" comes through.
I want everyone that walks into the rooms to feel the love that I felt. I want everyone that walks into the solice of church to feel love.
I know that doesn't always happen as we have discussed at length before, but I pray that if anyone is truly seeking they shall find. I love you man!

Hey Brother Joe. Jesus said the preach to the mutitudes. He never said what they should look like or act like or live like. He just said take his word to the multitude. Isn't it great buddy. I'm so glad you responded to that article. Your so awsume.
Love Ya.
Monty

Re: Anti-AA Rant.

"The thing to remember about reformed drunks is that they are the most self-absorbed, self-pitying, self-righteous bunch of moral fundamentalists you’re ever likely to stagger into."

Wrong. That's only the ones who go to meetings.

The ones at my home group are all from outerspace and don't speak english

...Sooo this is one of those "Recovery" forums I've heard so much about. Where to begin? First off I love it when folks play fast and loose with "AA HISTORY" and McStatistics. Am I to believe that we are supposed to disregard the hard learned lessons that where taught through the years in AA just so that we can be manipulated into "accepting the lord jesus christ as our personal savior"? Should we go back to putting newcomers on a strict diet of sourkrout and Kayo syrup, ala Dr. Bob as well? How about giving unqualified medical and psychological advise so we can start waking up to suicides in our kitchens again? My point is that along with the debt we owe our founders we also owe AA the respect to grow and evolve through the traditions that were set in place to keep AA available to all. I really don't understand the neccessaty for those who have found relief in organised religeon to drag their pulpits into AA, isn't there enough room for that outside the fellowship? Why is it neccessary to disrespect other spiritual beliefs in AA just to make ya'll feel superior to the infidells you hope to convert? But hey live and let live....as long as it doesn't effect AA as a whole. Unfortunatly there are those (Back to Basics, ie; The faith with works company) who don't respect the simple traditions AA has set in place to (for one thing) protect itself from becoming a RELIGION. If they speak the truth then why do they decieve with untruths and misleading stats? That bit about the 85% recovery rate back in the day, it's a nonsense stat and anybody who has half a brain knows it. To compare todays AA participants to those of 50-60 years ago is deliberatly misleading. Back then Rehabs,courts and a much more general Knoewledge that the program even exhists, weren't flooding AA with folks who might not be serious or appropriate for AA suggested steps of recovery, the B2B folks have got to be aware of that. So why do they continue to deliberatly mislead? Because they have an AGENDA, they have to make others think and act as they do lest their egotistical "COMPETATIVE SALVATION" lose it's glow of superiority. But take heart AA, the kooks tried this stuff in Arkansas back in the 40s too,AA survived that assault and if it be Gods Will we'll survive this latest christian jihad as well. ps. for those of ya'll who might reply I am aware that my spelling stinks.

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Hey Montyman, long time no chat. Just happened back into this site editing my favs. I see the anti-Christian rant is still going on. Pity.
If not for my Lord and Savior I would not be here today with over 6 years without foul substances ruinng my mind/body/spirit.
Earlier someone mentioned 'McStatistics" well, here's a few to chew on. Secular recovery groups boast about a 10% recovery rate, you know the one in ten thing. Well, there has been a burst of growth in Christian 12 step recovery groups, guess what, 80% success rate.
Let's do a comparison here: Secular-10% Christian-80%. hmmmmmmmmm Seems like there is a True Higher Power at work here, could it be Jesus??????? Think so, no, I know so.
As for all you non believers out there, it's o.k. took me a while to come around the the Real HP.

May God Bless you all.

James Mc
p.s what ever happened to the regular mailings I used to get? How do I get them back?